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Thread: Why does aggressive chisel prep make such a big difference?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Covington View Post
    A real problem with having things made in China is that the fabricators will switch the steel you specified for a different steel they have on hand, or a different steel that they can get cheaper than the one you specified. This happens even if you buy the steel yourself and ship it to the factory in China. They will use the supplied/specified steel to fill a different, more profitable order, or truck it off to Uncle Wong's factory down the block, and then replace it with a different steel that they can procure at less cost.

    Internal theft at the factories in China is also a contributing factor to this switcheroo, especially in the case where Uncle Wong benefits.

    Happens a lot unless you have a QC guy in the factory, do independent testing, and monitor security. An expensive proposition. I know this from direct hands-on experience.

    By removing the steel designation, the American/European companies protect themselves from claims from wholesalers and retailers who actually test the steel and discover that what was used it not what was required in the order documentation. 99.9% of consumers can't tell the difference, so instead of rejecting the bad lot, and fighting with the Chinese fabricator, they just sell it. By removing the material designation, they shield themselves from liability, or claims of breach of contract.

    This is the actual price uninformed/cheapskate people pay for insisting on the absolute lowest cost for the products they buy.

    A sound policy is to never buy anything made in China if the quality of the metal in the product is more important than the outward appearance of the metal.

    Reputation means something. It is not free to either manufacturer or consumer. Unfortunately, instead of improving their quality-assurance procedures and spending money on improving reputation through actual performance, too many companies boost their marketing efforts instead, and spend money on clever designs to improve their product's appearance while it hangs on the Borg's pegboard, where appearance is much more important than performance. They have traded their reputations for fast profits, with predictable results. It has always been thus.

    I think Lie-Nielson, as well as Lee Valley, did a wonderful thing by resurrecting old time-tested tool designs, improving those designs, and then manufacturing excellent tools using superior modern materials. But I fear Stanley and others have predictably stolen LN and LV's thunder, and are predictably adulterating the quality, just as they did in the 1950's. It has always been thus.

    Caveat emptor, baby.
    It seems to me that back in the day (50's and 60's) all these same criticism applied to cheap japanese products. They changed to become market leaders in quality. I suppose china will also. Who knows, the pendulum could swing back the other way for japan too as global pricing pressures keep increasing.

  2. #62
    The nationalism thing is, was, and always has been the smoke and mirror game and anyone who can think should think twice about pulling that card out. And besides, how boring can it get? The economics involved are not as simplistic and so enjoy less mass appeal, nonetheless, offer the better answer to the quandary of the cheap chisel.

  3. #63
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    There was a time in tool history, where we had to import, and were not allowed to even make a steel tool. A blacksmith making a steel shovel was committing an act of Treason in the English Colonies....We HAD to buy Made in England goods....Any trees over a certain size was called The King's Trees, and were reserved for use in the Royal Navy.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Covington View Post
    . By removing the steel designation, the American/European companies protect themselves from claims from wholesalers and retailers who actually test the steel and discover that what was used it not what was required in the order documentation. 99.9% of consumers can't tell the difference, so instead of rejecting the bad lot, and fighting with the Chinese fabricator, they just sell it. By removing the material designation, they shield themselves from liability, or claims of breach of contract.

    ....

    Caveat emptor, baby.
    It's not just Chinese manufacturers doing this my friend... It was going on long before they got into the business.... Large retailers and large manufacturers have had huge and sophisticated QC departments for a long time.... And for good reason...

    And they absolutely do fight it out with the manufacturer - they probably get some significant price concession.. And then they figure out whether they can sell it as 1st quality or if they have to downgrade it and sell it as a "second" or under an alternative brand name or some such.... Why? It has my name on it... My reputation is the one that ends up tarnished - not whichever nameless contract manufacturer does the work behind the curtain...

    But I think the point about Caveat Emptour with chisels is particularly valid... They have to do a specific job - and that depends on the maker "getting it right"..... I have had to return my fair share of "First quality" chisels... I also have ended up throwing out my fair share of cheapies that were junk...

    It's important to develop your own testing routine to separate the wheat from the chaff... And then some sort of routine to decipher whether it's really a bad one or just needs a bit more work... The heavy prep routine seems to help speed up that process for me at least....

    It's really no good to find out your chisel cracked internally during heat treating or is way too soft 2 years after you bought it... By then - you own it.... And about all you can do is send it on down the road....

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    There was a time in tool history, where we had to import, and were not allowed to even make a steel tool. A blacksmith making a steel shovel was committing an act of Treason in the English Colonies....We HAD to buy Made in England goods....Any trees over a certain size was called The King's Trees, and were reserved for use in the Royal Navy.
    There were quite a number of iron making installations in the American colonies prior to the revolution and I'm sure that tools were made from that iron and steel. It would be impossible for England to enforce such laws in the American Colonies, which were sparsely populated and spread over very large areas.

    Here are some of the furnaces in American prior to 1800 (from Wikipedia)

    Notable pre-19th-century iron furnaces in the US

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    There was a time in tool history, where we had to import, and were not allowed to even make a steel tool. A blacksmith making a steel shovel was committing an act of Treason in the English Colonies....We HAD to buy Made in England goods....Any trees over a certain size was called The King's Trees, and were reserved for use in the Royal Navy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    There were quite a number of iron making installations in the American colonies prior to the revolution and I'm sure that tools were made from that iron and steel. It would be impossible for England to enforce such laws in the American Colonies, which were sparsely populated and spread over very large areas.

    Here are some of the furnaces in American prior to 1800 (from Wikipedia) ...
    Britain had a classic mercantilist arrangement with the colonies: The colonies were only allowed to export raw materials, and only to Britain. The colonies were also required to buy all imported finished goods from Britain. They officially couldn't sell to or buy from any other country, though there was plenty of smuggling.

    The colonists generally could make finished goods for their own use and for sale within the colonies, just not for export. That's exactly what they did as part of the "non-importation" strategy (it was actually described as such at the time) to protest/resist British attempts at taxation in the 1760s and early 1770s. I imagine that's why so many of the forges you list started in that era
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 03-05-2018 at 3:58 PM.

  7. #67
    It's pretty amazing to think that except for about a 40 year window after WWII - the bulk of US exports are raw materials and agricultural products with the bulk of our finished goods production being consumed domestically - even to this day...

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by John C Cox View Post
    It's pretty amazing to think that except for about a 40 year window after WWII - the bulk of US exports are raw materials and agricultural products with the bulk of our finished goods production being consumed domestically - even to this day...
    That was certainly true up until the 20th Century, but the notion that we've reverted to a raw-good exporter is a gross (though sadly common) misconception. US finished-good manufacturing is or at least was as of a few years ago when I looked carefully at this the largest it's ever been by inflation-adjusted dollar value. Furthermore over 60% of US exports are finished capital or consumer goods. Raw materials only account for 10%. See: https://wits.worldbank.org/CountrySn...n/USA/textview. The short version is that a lot of microchips, vehicles, aircraft, etc are in that mix.

    The reason people *think* that the US doesn't make/export finished goods any more is because US manufacturing is heavily automated and represents a far lower share of employment than it did in the past.

    The bulk of US production has almost always been consumed domestically, period. The last time I checked our exports amounted to ~20% of GDP while imports amounted to ~25% (the difference is the trade deficit). The other 75% is entirely internal.

    Here's some more fun bedtime reading on the topic, broken out to mind-numbing granularity.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 03-05-2018 at 8:46 PM.

  9. #69
    So I did some back prep on some Buck O BORG chisels last night... They are kinda soft... It's really crazy that they will chop mortises fine with a 25 degree bevel (no microbevel) with the backs prepped on PSA sandpaper up to 325 grit (that's as fine as I have in PSA).... But the edge fails when I switch over to the actual flat stones on the back.. Go back to PSA paper on the surface plate and it's back to cutting fine.. Go back to the stone and the edge rolls... So now I can "turn this on and off"...

    Apparently - it's very slightly dubbing the edge on the back of the bevel with PSA paper on an actual granite surface plate... And that makes the edge hold up to a pretty impressive amount of work.. But I don't have problems with the mortise geometry going all out of whack...

    And it cuts like mad with that low bevel.. When the back is properly stoned flat - the edge doesn't hold up quite as well - even with a 35 degree microbevel.... So I am just going to try this PSA paper back prep for chopping duty for a while to see how it goes..

    (As an aside, I am curious about if this is one of the reasons water stones produce edges that work so well in real life work.. Perhaps they dish a bit or the slurry dubs the edge slightly and produces an extremely durable edge compared to Diamond stones which do not dish or produce any slurry at all..)

    Chisels for Paring will still get backs properly lapped flat - as the chisels register better this way when I need to sneak in and massage a fit..

    Why can't "One size fits all" just work fine? I know.. It's a rhetorical question.....

  10. #70
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    While chopping all those mortises yesterday ( in Pine) about every other mortise, I would "strop" the chisel on the leg of my blue jeans. couple of swipes on both bevel and back.
    chisels.jpg
    Nothing fancy....

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    While chopping all those mortises yesterday ( in Pine) about every other mortise, I would "strop" the chisel on the leg of my blue jeans. couple of swipes on both bevel and back.
    chisels.jpg
    Nothing fancy....
    Avoid the wear and tear on your jeans, use the palm of your hand, it's every bit as effective.

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