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Thread: Evaluating CO2 lasers and questions from a newbie

  1. #1
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    Evaluating CO2 lasers and questions from a newbie

    As one who has obtained a wealth of information from the Creek, I first want to say thank you to all those taking the time to share your skills and knowledge with others! I've learned soooo much from the archives, but a few questions still remain unanswered.

    Basically I'm just a hobbyist and volunteer, currently spending my retired days trying to keep the brain cells firing by making various crafts for dog and other group fundraising and other fun stuff. Am considering purchasing a CO2 laser and am interested in working with acrylics and other plastics (delrin, urethane, etc.), wood, paper, stamps, heat transfer vinyl, leather, anodized and Cermark metals, maybe glass and fabric. Am looking for a versatile system, rather than any type of production machine. Right now I'm thinking in the 40-60W range and I'd like a good bit of z-axis clearance but not really needing a gigantic work area.


    At this point I am not looking at the Chinese units and pretty much looking at just Epilog, Trotec, and Universal. A frugal person by nature, but the apparent lack of support for the Chinese units isn't what I'm looking for. I want to make stuff, not spend all my time fixing the equipment. Yes, the husband and I could probably repair a unit (mostly the husband, ex-electronics tech, Navy nuke, and YAG laser user), but I want to put my efforts into using the machine, not getting it to work properly. I was surprised to read some fairly recent posts indicating that the Trotec support is going downhill, this after reading other sources that no longer had Epilog as #1 for apparently the same reason. I am a little concerned if the big three aren't going to provide support after the purchase, then I may as well save money and just go with one of the Chinese units! So any thoughts on current support after the purchase would be appreciated.


    My primary question is how one evaluates similar lasers from the different manufacturers?? Was wondering if you send design files and media to each for them to run, but there's no way of knowing what machine and setup they actually used to produce the end product. So, for these manufacturers, does it all come down to features, cost, warranty, support, etc.?? (Not seeing any trade shows in my area anytime soon so guess I'll have to wait if I want a good deal or extras.)


    Another concern is software. Although I still have the old CorelDraw x3, I now use the Adobe products and would want the laser SW color mapping and other features to work for Illustrator and not have to jump through hoops to get an Illustrator job done. I've read that any SW package will work, but wondering if as easily as if I were using CorelDraw? I don't mind some initial Illustrator setup differences but wouldn't want to deal with it when sending every job.


    I also do some sublimation of items that I'd like to be able to cut out and would be interested if anyone is using any type of registration mark reading SW like Trotec's JobControl Vision??

    Thanks!!


    Barb

    Retired and loving life learning new skills to make crafts for dog rescue group fundraising, etc. Crafting toys include 80W Trotec Speedy 360, 1st generation Carvewright, SC Midi-lathe, SwingMan, CraftRobo, Cameo3, AdobeCC . . .

  2. #2
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    Well as a Border Collie owner just want to welcome you to the group. Learning a CO2 machine is easier than raising and training a BC pup! (almost). Any of those big three you listed would be fine for what you want to do and nothing smaller than 60 watts because after you get that 30 watt machine you Will want more power later on. You might find one of those big 3 dealers has a trade in used machine for sale. On the open market used are hard to find and evaluate on your own. Search and read on here there is lots to learn.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  3. #3
    Having had Trotecs for over 11 years I can tell you that their support is the best in the business and getting better all the time. Yes, I have experience with ULS and Epilog and I'm not knocking their support but Trotec is the best.

    I have seen the JobControl Vision demonstrated at shows and it's pretty impressive but I don't know anybody who has it.

    BTW, my Trotec is my second and it's all of 6 weeks old. I love it.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Gravograph IS400
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Dye Sublimation
    CorelDraw X5, X7

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill George View Post
    Well as a Border Collie owner just want to welcome you to the group. Learning a CO2 machine is easier than raising and training a BC pup! (almost). Any of those big three you listed would be fine for what you want to do and nothing smaller than 60 watts because after you get that 30 watt machine you Will want more power later on. You might find one of those big 3 dealers has a trade in used machine for sale. On the open market used are hard to find and evaluate on your own. Search and read on here there is lots to learn.
    Thanks for the kind welcome, Bill!! Learning a CO2 machine sounds like a piece of cake, BC's and Aussies are fun, but definitely smarter than I am. (The pup on the right is a BC/Aussie. We had an Australian Shepherd and a Border Collie and I mentioned to a friend that I didn't know what breed I'd get next, I liked attributes of both. Of course she knew someone that had bred a PB Aussie and BC, we weren't really looking for a pup, so we just went to LOOK at the puppies.) Love the cute pup in your profile photo!

    I didn't want to spend a bunch and then find out that I had a unit that would be limited in what I could do with it. I'll ask about trade-ins, hadn't thought about them!
    Barb

    Retired and loving life learning new skills to make crafts for dog rescue group fundraising, etc. Crafting toys include 80W Trotec Speedy 360, 1st generation Carvewright, SC Midi-lathe, SwingMan, CraftRobo, Cameo3, AdobeCC . . .

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Null View Post
    Having had Trotecs for over 11 years I can tell you that their support is the best in the business and getting better all the time. Yes, I have experience with ULS and Epilog and I'm not knocking their support but Trotec is the best.

    I have seen the JobControl Vision demonstrated at shows and it's pretty impressive but I don't know anybody who has it.
    Good to know about Trotec support!! I like what I see of their machines so far.

    The JobControl Vision may be waaaay out of my price range but sounds like it would have lots of potential if it works well.
    Barb

    Retired and loving life learning new skills to make crafts for dog rescue group fundraising, etc. Crafting toys include 80W Trotec Speedy 360, 1st generation Carvewright, SC Midi-lathe, SwingMan, CraftRobo, Cameo3, AdobeCC . . .

  6. #6
    Well yes the big 3 are the way to go if you have the big budget and obviously you do. But not all Chinese machines are bad theres several decent machines sold here in the USA that are good machines with great support . If you decide you want to lower the cost of getting into laser engraving you might consider Rabbit Laser, Boss Laser and theres a few others also. I've had my 60 watt Rabbit for going on 3 years now and like you I'm a hobbyist and not in the business so to speak. Ray Scott and his wife own Rabbit Laser USA and their support is excellent. I have had basically no problem with the laser and still on its first tube.The few problems I have had were my fault and a call to them had me up and running in a few mins. I have a 600by 400 mm engraving area and 9 inchs of Z axis with pass thru. I have never needed that tho LOL
    Just some thing to consider if you decide the big 3 are a bit pricey to start.
    If the Help and advice you received here was of any VALUE to you PLEASE! Become a Contributor
    Rabbit RL_XX_6040-60 watt Laser engraving/cutting machine Oh wait its a 3D Printer my bad LOL
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  7. #7
    I still use Corel X3 - no need to change. Universal & Chinese lasers.
    Best wishes,
    Ian



    ULS M-300, 55w made 2002 with rotary. Goldenlaser 130 watt, 1300x700 made 2011.
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  8. #8
    Welcome and good luck in your journey. I'm not sure where you read Trotec's support was going downhill. Quite the opposite, they have ramped up their tech support department over the last few years and now offer more support than ever before. Like other companies, growing a company like this is always a challenge. More sales mean more customers, which means the need for more support. It's easy to add bodies in a call center but to get good tech support, it takes time to train people and get them up to speed. That's not unique to any company, that's just how it takes place. Over more than a decade, I've watched all three of the big companies go through growing pains in one area or another. They all work through it and come out the other side a better company.

    Will there always be someone out there who's got a unique problem that they struggle to get fixed? Certainly. It happens with everyone. I will say, in my experience, on those cases, it's not always as it seems when people are complaining online. They are only telling one side of the story. I recall a person insisting a laser wasn't working right. They ranted online over and over about it. Made the company sound like they were totally ignoring them and their issues. I got involved, saw what the customer was trying to do, and immediately realized they were doing something they shouldn't have been trying to do. It was 100% a user error and they lacked experience and knowledge to know the right techniques, so they were trying something and it wasn't working, which lead to them blaming the manufacturer. I suspect that happens a lot more than you think. It's hard to fix a customers lack of experience over the phone on a tech support call.

    I wouldn't hesitate to buy a brand name laser and feel confident it would be supported.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
    Router : ShopBot 48" x 96" CNC Router Rotary Engravers : (2) Xenetech XOT 16 x 25 Rotary Engravers

    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  9. #9
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    I am not sure if your going to be a hobbyist or a business. The big three machines with USA support can range from $10k on up with the larger ones running $20-30k plus and folks correct me if I am wrong on that pricing.

    I am somewhat a hobbyist but I also do paying work a lot of the time. I can also build and repair as needed. Both my machines are Chinese but no issues because I shopped around and purchased the best I could afford. My LightObject machine as USA support and so do the others mentioned. I also use an older version of Corel Draw X6 and it works fine for me.

    Good luck in your venture, yes there is a learning curve with the co2 laser, but training our Border Collie pup is a challenge also!
    Last edited by Bill George; 02-23-2018 at 8:39 AM.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bert Kemp View Post
    Well yes the big 3 are the way to go if you have the big budget and obviously you do. But not all Chinese machines are bad theres several decent machines sold here in the USA that are good machines with great support . If you decide you want to lower the cost of getting into laser engraving you might consider Rabbit Laser, Boss Laser and theres a few others also. I've had my 60 watt Rabbit for going on 3 years now and like you I'm a hobbyist and not in the business so to speak. Ray Scott and his wife own Rabbit Laser USA and their support is excellent. I have had basically no problem with the laser and still on its first tube.The few problems I have had were my fault and a call to them had me up and running in a few mins. I have a 600by 400 mm engraving area and 9 inchs of Z axis with pass thru. I have never needed that tho LOL
    Just some thing to consider if you decide the big 3 are a bit pricey to start.
    Thanks, Bert! I saw some of your posts about the Rabbit Laser systems and will definitely get more info and price them, will also look at the Boss laser. The big 3 ARE pricey, maybe too pricey, especially with me just starting out, I just don't want to throw away half or so the cost of a big 3 unit on a Chinese machine that ends up sitting unused in a corner of our garage. I'm kinda a perfectionist, I have no problem working to get things looking right, but if a great job is beyond the capabilities of the equipment, then it'll more than likely end up unused.

    Considering everything at this point!!!

    Thanks!
    Barb

    Retired and loving life learning new skills to make crafts for dog rescue group fundraising, etc. Crafting toys include 80W Trotec Speedy 360, 1st generation Carvewright, SC Midi-lathe, SwingMan, CraftRobo, Cameo3, AdobeCC . . .

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster View Post
    I still use Corel X3 - no need to change. Universal & Chinese lasers.
    Thanks, Ian! I actually use Adobe Illustrator now, but still have my Corel X3 and old Windows XP laptop that I could run it on. Good to know.
    Barb

    Retired and loving life learning new skills to make crafts for dog rescue group fundraising, etc. Crafting toys include 80W Trotec Speedy 360, 1st generation Carvewright, SC Midi-lathe, SwingMan, CraftRobo, Cameo3, AdobeCC . . .

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    Welcome and good luck in your journey. I'm not sure where you read Trotec's support was going downhill. Quite the opposite, they have ramped up their tech support department over the last few years and now offer more support than ever before. Like other companies, growing a company like this is always a challenge. More sales mean more customers, which means the need for more support. It's easy to add bodies in a call center but to get good tech support, it takes time to train people and get them up to speed. That's not unique to any company, that's just how it takes place. Over more than a decade, I've watched all three of the big companies go through growing pains in one area or another. They all work through it and come out the other side a better company.

    Will there always be someone out there who's got a unique problem that they struggle to get fixed? Certainly. It happens with everyone. I will say, in my experience, on those cases, it's not always as it seems when people are complaining online. They are only telling one side of the story. I recall a person insisting a laser wasn't working right. They ranted online over and over about it. Made the company sound like they were totally ignoring them and their issues. I got involved, saw what the customer was trying to do, and immediately realized they were doing something they shouldn't have been trying to do. It was 100% a user error and they lacked experience and knowledge to know the right techniques, so they were trying something and it wasn't working, which lead to them blaming the manufacturer. I suspect that happens a lot more than you think. It's hard to fix a customers lack of experience over the phone on a tech support call.

    I wouldn't hesitate to buy a brand name laser and feel confident it would be supported.


    Thanks, Steve Scott!! I think the post was from sometime a couple years ago, a firmware update that came with few instructions, efforts for specifics weren't easily obtained, and things went downhill from there. And I think one of the comments mentioned them putting more manpower into installation support rather than customer support so I was wondering if that was kinda an isolated occurrence or something that is becoming more prevalent.

    Have to say that I didn't find many negative comments about most of the manufacturers in the archives I read, so that's certainly a plus for the entire industry.
    Barb

    Retired and loving life learning new skills to make crafts for dog rescue group fundraising, etc. Crafting toys include 80W Trotec Speedy 360, 1st generation Carvewright, SC Midi-lathe, SwingMan, CraftRobo, Cameo3, AdobeCC . . .

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill George View Post
    I am not sure if your going to be a hobbyist or a business. The big three machines with USA support can range from $10k on up with the larger ones running $20-30k plus and folks correct me if I am wrong on that pricing.

    I am somewhat a hobbyist but I also do paying work a lot of the time. I can also build and repair as needed. Both my machines are Chinese but no issues because I shopped around and purchased the best I could afford. My LightObject machine as USA support and so do the others mentioned. I also use an older version of Corel Draw X6 and it works fine for me.

    Good luck in your venture, yes there is a learning curve with the co2 laser, but training our Border Collie pup is a challenge also!
    We'll see how it goes, it may just end up a very expensive hobby but definitely not into the $30k nosebleed prices, and I haven't ruled out giving a look at the Chinese units with USA support. I'll check out the LightObject machines too!

    Good luck to you with the BC training!! Our young BC/Aussie is 6 now, and the BC on the left will be 14 in June. They'll do whatever works to get whatever is important to them, we've always trained with positive reinforcement. BC's also like a daily routine, guess it's a control thing .
    Barb

    Retired and loving life learning new skills to make crafts for dog rescue group fundraising, etc. Crafting toys include 80W Trotec Speedy 360, 1st generation Carvewright, SC Midi-lathe, SwingMan, CraftRobo, Cameo3, AdobeCC . . .

  14. #14
    Have you thought about buying a used 'western' machine? Many can be bought from dealers who can service them. Keep some money set aside for the possible mishap. Even after a few repairs you'll be money ahead. And they'll hold their value well...
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  15. #15
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    I'd definitely get on the Epilog Facebook page, Yes, I really dislke FB. But the group lets members put up adverts for used machines. Don't post prices, you have to PM, but you might get lucky. Epilog also posts used, for sales on their site. BTW, I DO like my Chinese, it won't do everything well, photos are a big struggle for me, mainly software settings I think, but I avoid those.
    Woodworking, Old Tools and Shooting
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