Sawstop's Patenet To Expire in 2021 Cheaper Saws?

[Andrew Hughes]

So it begins robot furniture. https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/28/...tom-furniture/

[John Sanford]

[SIZE=3] Let's say that the SawStop patents expired.

Will the SawStop technology fit into existing table saw design? Or, will table saw design require changes to accommodate the SawStop technology?

Yes, changes are required. If they weren't, then Gass could have made a lot more money selling conversions to existing saws than selling new saws. The main consideration for contractor and cabinet table saws is the trunnions have to be stouter to handle the braking. Even though the aluminum chunka is taking the force, there's still a lot of force over a very, very short period of time that the trunnions have to absorb. Additionally, there are matters of clearance, of how to mount the tech, etc. I'm thinking that even retrofitting to an existing saw would have required precision machining, which would have driven the cost up higher than simply buying a new saw with the tech already installed.

If the SawStop technology requires a design change, will the consumer see the anticipated price breaks as the costs for redesign, retooling, etc., are reflected in the selling price and are passed on to the consumer.

No, the consumer won't see it, not in the short run. We already saw what happened with the Bosch tech. From a specification standpoint, the Bosch saw was essentially identical to the non-safety equipped 4100 (I think that's the model number) that Bosch had on the market for several years. It cost twice as much. This from a company who's R&D budget is larger than the rest of the entire power tool industry's total annual sales.

In all the discussions/arguments/rants over SawStop, I cannot recall this issue of SawStop compatibility will current design discussed. Does anyone know??

Not compatible. It was discussed, wayyyyy back when. Fortunately, between SawStop and Bosch, the mechanical aspects have been worked out. The place where the real action is going to be is applying the technology to other stationary power tools.

[John Sanford]

Maybe Bosch will wait until then and re-release their blade stop flesh sensing saw. Even though their application was different than the SS version, the courts were swayed by the SS owners to force Bosch to cease marketing their own machine.

Did Bosch pull it from the rest of the world?

[John Sanford]

...
Any product that is made safer (due to government regulations or not) is a good thing.
...
Simon

Can't agree with you there Simon without caveats. Any product that is made safer, yet unaffordable, is not a good thing. Any product that is made safer, yet less effective, is not a good thing. Safety is simply part of the total value of a product. It's an important part to be sure, but not the only value. If a product can be made safer for the same cost, with the same effectiveness, then that is most certainly a good thing. Otherwise, we need to determine is the cost (in dollars, effectiveness, durability, etc) worth it? It may be, but it certainly isn't automatically a good thing. A pretty clear, albeit extreme example, would be this:

Speed limit ALL cars, trucks and motorcycles to 10mph in the interest of safety. They can't go faster than that, and it would be very cheap to do. Would that be a good thing?

[John Sanford]

If the patents are actually running out in 6 to 10 years as rumored (no one outside the old or new ownership knows for sure), a Canadian battle may not be worth a fight at all.
Simon

Actually, when the patents run out is public knowledge, or more accurately, in the public domain. Identify the patent #s. Got the Patent Office, ask. (Likely searchable on their website.) It's all publicly available info. Or at least the American patents, don't know about any other countries.

Better put the resources into expanding the SS feature to other Festool machines.

Agreed. And/or working with one/several of the large Euro machine companies on incorporating the tech. 'Cause that's what I want. A Euro slider with the tech. Bestest of both worlds.

[Edwin Santos]

A pretty clear, albeit extreme example, would be this:

Speed limit ALL cars, trucks and motorcycles to 10mph in the interest of safety. They can't go faster than that, and it would be very cheap to do. Would that be a good thing?

Well it would allow people a lot more time for texting.

Seriously though, there's a thesis that might have been mentioned in this thread that says an environment of increased safety can reach a point of the person paying less attention and subconsciously going to sleep at the switch which can negate the safety precautions.
I realize your example is exaggerated to make a point but let's think about it. A person that would have been disposed to texting while driving under normal conditions, would most likely do so a lot more if they were forced to go that slow, and in doing so, they would at least partly erode the safety benefits. It's the old false sense of security argument. I'm not saying I agree with this thesis, I'm only saying it exists.

I said so earlier in the thread, I happen to think most woodworkers are very self-accountable and thereby less enthusiastic than others to have the government mandate their safety.

[Simon MacGowen]

Can't agree with you there Simon without caveats. Any product that is made safer, yet unaffordable, is not a good thing. Any product that is made safer, yet less effective, is not a good thing. Safety is simply part of the total value of a product. It's an important part to be sure, but not the only value. If a product can be made safer for the same cost, with the same effectiveness, then that is most certainly a good thing. Otherwise, we need to determine is the cost (in dollars, effectiveness, durability, etc) worth it? It may be, but it certainly isn't automatically a good thing. A pretty clear, albeit extreme example, would be this:

Speed limit ALL cars, trucks and motorcycles to 10mph in the interest of safety. They can't go faster than that, and it would be very cheap to do. Would that be a good thing?

The caveats are implicit in my statement since I wasn't making it for the purposes of submitting it to a peer review panel. My statement should be read in the context of this thread. Otherwise, everything said needs to be subject to some fine print and that certainly isn't the intention of everyone.

The safest woodworking tool, if considered without context, is one that you don't ever get close to, touch, own or even see. I don't think that is the direction we want to go to when we discuss shop safety.

But everything being equal, the safer a tool is made (by regulation or not), the better. That is my belief when it comes to consumer goods. Are they gonna be more expensive? That's another consideration.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Actually, when the patents run out is public knowledge, or more accurately, in the public domain. Identify the patent #s. Got the Patent Office, ask. (Likely searchable on their website.) It's all publicly available info. Or at least the American patents, don't know about any other countries.


Agreed. And/or working with one/several of the large Euro machine companies on incorporating the tech. 'Cause that's what I want. A Euro slider with the tech. Bestest of both worlds.

SS seems to have patents registered in Japan, Canada, China, etc.

Someone told me you can see a SS bandsaw prototype (?) on the SS website. And a Euro sliding saw with the SS-like feature has been on youtube.

Simon

[Ray Newman]

John Sanford: thanks for the information 'bout the required design changes. Always thought that was the case, but never certain.

[Curt Harms]

Maybe Bosch will wait until then and re-release their blade stop flesh sensing saw. Even though their application was different than the SS version, the courts were swayed by the SS owners to force Bosch to cease marketing their own machine.

I don't have an insider insight but have read that the Bosch saw was not an especially good saw though the safety mechanism was not an issue. I wonder if that's why Bosch didn't contest the court ruling. Why spend a lot of lawyer $$ to be able to sell a mediocre product?

[Simon MacGowen]

I don't have an insider insight but have read that the Bosch saw was not an especially good saw though the safety mechanism was not an issue. I wonder if that's why Bosch didn't contest the court ruling. Why spend a lot of lawyer $$ to be able to sell a mediocre product?

https://www.protoolreviews.com/tools...jss-mca/14982/

As far as I have read, Bosch has exhausted all its legal options and the only "remedy" left was for the President to override the final ruling. That of course did not happen and Bosch could only sell its saws outside the US. SawStop has held patents in other countries including Canada but whether it chooses to go after Bosch in such smaller market is SawStop's decision.The cabinet saws are SS's bread and butter product, not the jobsite model.

Simon