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Thread: Sawstop's Patenet To Expire in 2021 Cheaper Saws?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    Simon, SS ICS is a good saw but not built to the same standards as true commercial machines. It is used in many shops because of the technology but I've heard mixed opinions on how well it stands up to hard industrial use. My comment was the hope that larger heavier saws will also receive the technology. I've also hoped for a true sliding SS that could handle the 12-16" blades and give Martin, Altendorf, SCMI and others some competition. Maybe that will happen as competition increases. Dave
    The video I referred to is a SS tech. used on an Italian industrial scale sliding (?) saw, if my memory is correct. Can any other member locate that video? SS might already be doing some joint work with another Euro saw before Festool's parent co. bought it.

    Simon

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    The video I referred to is a SS tech. used on an Italian industrial scale sliding (?) saw, if my memory is correct. Can any other member locate that video? SS might already be doing some joint work with another Euro saw before Festool's parent co. bought it.

    Simon
    Griggio makes a slider with “Safety System”.

    I think a slider with that system is way overkill. My hands are never close to the blade with a slider. With clamps and or a Fritz &Franz jig the tiniest of pieces of wood can be cut with your hands miles away from the blade.

  3. Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    Patents and trademarks are very different things. A trademark is just what it says - it's a logo or sign that identifies the product. A trademark can last forever. A patent has a limited lifetime.

    The whole rational for patent law is that the inventor "teaches" how to do the patented process and the government gives him or her the right to restrict others from doing the process for a limited period of time. After that time, the invention is "public domain" and open for any one to use without restriction.

    And just as a side note, if you invent something and do not apply for a patent, but disclose the invention publically, after a fairly short time you lose the right to patent your invention and any one can use it without restriction.

    Mike
    Ernie Emerson just recently trademarked his "emerson wave operner" after it patent was coming to an end.

    Sal Glessor did a similar thing for Spyderco... not sure of the legal reasons but they both license it out it to other manufacturers

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by John Sincerbeaux View Post
    Griggio makes a slider with “Safety System”.

    I think a slider with that system is way overkill. My hands are never close to the blade with a slider. With clamps and or a Fritz &Franz jig the tiniest of pieces of wood can be cut with your hands miles away from the blade.
    Thank you.

    The sliding saw hot dog demo:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HmMKyZlcMM

    Simon

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hughes View Post
    With all the talk from inventors and this new generation of tech kids. Flying cars smart homes robots etc. I'm thinking the days of handfed machines are numbered. Esp tablesaws soon the furniture machine where you stick wood in one end and out pops your piece that's assembled in your house.
    The satisfied home owner proudly shares his ability to make what he wants. And declares himself a woodworker.
    Ha! I wish. Outfitting mama Fanuc to handle most facets of a cabinet shop would be crazy expensive.

    I dream of a low employee count automated shop. I'd get a lot more sleep and way less heartburn.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Sincerbeaux View Post
    Griggio makes a slider with “Safety System”.

    I think a slider with that system is way overkill. My hands are never close to the blade with a slider. With clamps and or a Fritz &Franz jig the tiniest of pieces of wood can be cut with your hands miles away from the blade.

    In my case it was the slider mechanism that resulted in the board that I was holding flipping over and putting my hand into the blade.

    I was nowhere near the blade but the flipping board jerked my hand sideways into the blade. I will admit that I was doing something that was not correct but it was a new machine and I just did something that I had done on a different machine many times.

    So even a slider can bite you if you get complacent.

  7. #37
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    My experience is that the initial patent must be renewed at 3, 7 and 11 years until at the 20 year mark, you can no longer claim exclusive rights. Each renewal is more expensive than the previous one. I was getting small royalties on my patent until well after it expired.
    NOW you tell me...

  8. Sawstop technology is nothing new. It's a spring loaded blade brake operated by GFI circuitry. GFI circuitry that was developed because of government regulations.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    Note - its a sad day when they can regulate what saw technology we can use but other, more lethal products, are readily available to virtually anyone
    I agree with this 100%.

    I don't think my table saw is anywhere near being the most dangerous tool in my shop. In close to 60 years of working with tools I have had a lot of injuries and the vast majority were from hand tools or handheld power tools. I have never in all that time had a table saw related injury.

    Looking back on my injuries, I found that failure to use clamps or a vice or putting hands too close to clamped work pieces accounted for the overwhelming majority of my injuries. When that finally sunk in and I did better at not holding work pieces when using sharp tools my injuries became pretty rare.

  10. #40
    Each brake has a 32-bit processor. The algorithm to process the signal is not trivial. Don't entirely minimize their engineering as trivial and nothing new.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Marty View Post
    Each brake has a 32-bit processor. The algorithm to process the signal is not trivial. Don't entirely minimize their engineering as trivial and nothing new.
    If they have a copyright on the software algorithm that can last up to 150 years.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall K Harrison View Post
    If they have a copyright on the software algorithm that can last up to 150 years.
    A copyright applies to the specific code, not to the idea. Another person can start from scratch, write code that does exactly the same thing, and not violate the copyright. In essence, copyright protects against copying the work. That applies to a book as well as software code.

    In no way would that prevent another company from doing the exact same thing that SawStop does. A patent, however, protects the concept. If someone did the exact same thing, the patent owner could assert against that person or company.

    Mike

    [A copyright would probably be of little use because Festool is not going to let anyone outside of the company see the code.]
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 02-23-2018 at 11:47 AM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Marty View Post
    Each brake has a 32-bit processor. The algorithm to process the signal is not trivial. Don't entirely minimize their engineering as trivial and nothing new.
    There are many, many situations where companies have produced alternatives to very complex systems. For example, many people produce WiFi (802.11) products. The complexity of 802.11 is mind boggling. People are smart. If one person can do it, another can. And the implementations from different companies not only have to work, they have to work with each other. And that's a more complex problem.

    Compared to 802.11, I imagine the software to detect a finger touching the blade is pretty trivial.

    Mike

    [Another example, not as well known, is SONET. It is exceedingly complex and yet multiple companies produce working (and interworking) products.]

    [What may happen is that a semiconductor company (probably in China) will make chips that implement the SawStop safety feature (after the patents expire) and sell those chips to the companies who make table saws. That would make sense because it would only require one company to make the investment to build the "system", rather than every table saw company having to do it. That model is used in WiFi where several companies make WiFi chips and many companies make consumer products with WiFi in them by purchasing the chips.]
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 02-23-2018 at 11:48 AM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Staehling View Post
    I agree with this 100%.

    I don't think my table saw is anywhere near being the most dangerous tool in my shop. In close to 60 years of working with tools I have had a lot of injuries and the vast majority were from hand tools or handheld power tools. I have never in all that time had a table saw related injury.

    Looking back on my injuries, I found that failure to use clamps or a vice or putting hands too close to clamped work pieces accounted for the overwhelming majority of my injuries. When that finally sunk in and I did better at not holding work pieces when using sharp tools my injuries became pretty rare.
    Ya know Pat was talking about apples and oranges, don't you?

    Just because something else is more fatal or more dangerous does not mean government regulations on better safety is wrong. With that kind of logic, we don't even need any warning labels on ANY products.

    Any product that is made safer (due to government regulations or not) is a good thing. If the industry does not act or acts only for its own interest, the government has to step in. Riving knives, like seat belts, smoking hazard label warning etc. are good examples. Why not mandatory finger-saving features when the patents expire?

    Simon

    Simon

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post

    In no way would that prevent another company from doing the exact same thing that SawStop does. A patent, however, protects the concept. If someone did the exact same thing, the patent owner could assert against that person or company.

    Mike
    Bosch already tried that...and we know the outcome.

    Festool should come out with a SS bandsaw and mitresaw! (Who knows, may be they are working on them already).

    Simon

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