Upgrade table saw worth it?

[Clayton Dool]

Thanks everyone for fantastic feedback. I am going to go ahead and get the SawStop. Again, while I am happy with my TS3650, I think the extra safety features would be a good piece of mind. And since I do have the money saved up, guess time to bite the bullet. Buy once, cry once. So easy to window shop, but come time to hand over the money it is so hard. Fingers crossed ss will have a promo this year, like they have constantly in the past. Now that they are owned by Festool's parent company, will see if it affects anything.

Unfortunately, space is becoming limited in my 2 car garage. Between 8" jointer (nicknamed the "aircraft carrier"), table saw, planer, tormek, bandsaw, and more fun toys, I am running out of space. And for my own personal safety, am staying away from the 3rd bay where wife parks, else she starts impersonating Achmed (Jeff Dunham)..."I Kill You". So have to sell existing saw before I can consider buying new one. But new tools is worth the hassles, right?

[Clayton Dool]

I, like, many of was opposed to SS because of the business tactics of the inventor. I had a perfectly good Unisaw that I really liked. In Feb. of 2013 a moment of inattention caused me to swing my left pointer finger across the blade. I had a diagonal cut across the nail. Afterwards, I went through my actions realized that instead of lifting my hand, I had started to turn to the left for another piece of stock. Afterwards, my GF told meto get rid of the saw. Which I did. The inventors aside, the SS is a really well built piece of equipment. I have been happy with mine. I think that I have become more safety conscious when using the SS. I don't want to have to buy a new and cartridge. I did learn that while you are in the ER getting sewn up, don't tell funny jokes to your medical people. They start laughing and giggling and jerking around and poke the needles everywhere. As to the price, it's like buying a Robust lathe as opposed to Say a Jet lathe. Both are fine products and will get the job done. But, one will give you more satisfaction at the end of the day.
Joe

Making others laugh sounds like what I would do. I feel that even when in pain or in worst moments in life, I would rather smile and make others smile. My father was the same, so even when he was given less than week to live, he and I joked about it and made best of it...while my mother stood there thinking we were morbid.

But I am glad your accident wasn't that serious (loss of finger).

And for everyone else who has shared their storied on accidents, thank you. I appreciate everyone's input. Good to hear we are all focused on safety, but also to know that even at our best, accidents can occur.

[Jacob Mac]

I recently went through the same process you are going through. I finally decided on a Grizzly G0690. Here's why, I will always use a bandsaw, router, or hand tools whenever I can instead of a table saw. So it isn't quite as central to my work as it is with others. I have an overhead guard I use whenever possible, which I feel makes the saw safer. I always use push blocks, feather boards etc when required. I also don't reach over blades or get my hands close to the saw.

With all those things in mind, and my desire to get a cyclone, mini split and new bandsaw in my shop, I opted to save a little cash. I decided I could minimize risk by other means. It was a tough decision, and I sure hope I am right.

With all that said, I think the sawstop is a great saw, and buying one makes a lot of sense to me. If you have a fully outfitted shop, I doubt you would regret it

[Simon MacGowen]

I have nothing against SawStop except the price and I know you owners can make mincemeat of that argument if you care to. But I am a woodworker of nearly 60 years.

But after all these years of using a table saw, I've had no injuries, a couple of kickback issues which were definitely my fault startled me, but no bad experiences. I am of the school that if you're safety concious you don't need a SS. On the other hand, if I were young and flush I would probably get one.

As others have pointed out, I also wear seat belts.

I am not sure about your suggestion that if one has more woodworking mileage to go, or younger/less experienced woodworkers would need the SS more.

Researches have shown that older people are more prone to accidents and injuries (for a lot of reasons, of course), and if you ask me (I am not too old yet by today's standards), I think the older we are, the more protection we need to compensate for our decrease in our ability to respond, etc.

My point is not specific to the SawStop discussion. One study found fatality rate for drivers over 85 is four times higher than for teenagers.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

So, it was basically his own fault for not practicing safe driving habits. How is this any different from not following safe operating practices on an piece of machinery?

The story is not about assigning blame or fault. He readily admitted his responsibility (the Police found no skid marks or any attempt to stop the car (based on the dashboard camera). He drove for a living before he retired and had done countless highway trips (ring a bell? 45+ years of woodworking without one single injury...).

The difference between a car with an auto-breaking feature (or a tablesaw with a SS) and one without is IF and WHEN accidents happen, the damage would be minimized. In my pal's case, the auto-breaking could have prevented a fatality, and in many SS incidents recorded or reported, amputations have been avoided.

In terms of kickbacks, the SS has one of the best riving knife designs to keep kickback incidents to a minimum. Some people like to describe SS as a saw good for avoiding amputations but bad for preventing kickbacks.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Unfortunately, space is becoming limited in my 2 car garage. Between 8" jointer (nicknamed the "aircraft carrier"), table saw, planer, tormek, bandsaw, and more fun toys, I am running out of space. And for my own personal safety, am staying away from the 3rd bay where wife parks, else she starts impersonating Achmed (Jeff Dunham)..."I Kill You". So have to sell existing saw before I can consider buying new one. But new tools is worth the hassles, right?

May not be the path you want to go. My old neighbor downsized and moved to a two car garage shop, like yours. He sold his jointer when he moved and just kept the thickness planer which he now uses for face-jointing boards.

For edge jointing? Use your tuned SawStop!

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Wow, I had no idea it was that much. I thought the extra was more like $500. At that price, it's pretty ridiculous to even consider the Saw Stop. There are so many other safety items you could get/do for that much money that are actually more likely to hurt you. Such as better dust control.

The price difference he quoted is for HIS version of SS. A 7.5HP 3 phase SS with all the available accessories installed, for example (last workplace), can cost a lot of money for sure. SS has different entry price levels, not much different when you go shop a BMW or Lexus. One could buy a house for the price of a top-end BMW...but then there are many low-end BMWs on the road.

Simon

[Ray Newman]

Clayton Dool: today I received the Woodcraft monthly flyer.

Advertised was the yearly SawStop free upgrades -- either the overarm dust collection or the integrated mobile base --for any new professional cabinet saw sold between March 1 - April 30, 2018.

[Frank Pratt]

I've owned my SS for about 4 years (upgraded from a 20 year old Delta contractors saw). I always get a chuckle when I see these threads about the "worth" in purchasing a SS over another brand. The SS premium over another brand of similar quality is about $1,200usd give or take. With the added safety feature you get for that premium, it's almost negligent not to get the SS. (and yes $1,200 is a lot of money, I get that).

Pretty hard to put an exact number on it, but when I got my 3 HP PCS a few years ago I figured is was less than $500 premium for the SawStop. Aside from the Euro kit, the only thing I saw (pun intended) that was comparable quality wise was PowerMatic. I didn't go that way because of frequently reported problems with the mobile base & a really horrible pre-sale customer service experience.

[Mike Henderson]

I've owned my SS for about 4 years (upgraded from a 20 year old Delta contractors saw). I always get a chuckle when I see these threads about the "worth" in purchasing a SS over another brand. The SS premium over another brand of similar quality is about $1,200usd give or take. With the added safety feature you get for that premium, it's almost negligent not to get the SS. (and yes $1,200 is a lot of money, I get that).

I purchased a PCS and I know it was not more than $500 compared to a comparable saw. But my fingers, and the ability to use them the way I'm accustomed to, are priceless.

Mike

[Brett Luna]

I upgraded from a low end contractor saw to the SawStop 3hp PCS and it was heckyeahyoubetcha worth it to me. Some people hate 'em and I don't give a rat's tiny puckered poop shooter. During my USAF career, I maintained jet fighter avionics with lasers that'll put your eye out kid. I supervised hot rearming and refueling operations, I towed aircraft, and I toted guns. I'm still a shooting enthusiast. Safety has been the constant thread through all of it. Me, I'll opt for a layered approach to safety that includes both sound methods and physical safeguards.

[Rick Potter]

About the price difference...When I got my PCS two years ago at Rockler, I asked the manager about the cost of other 3HP cabinet saws. He said that either the PM 2000, or the Delta Unisaw was more than the 3HP PCS with the good 36" fence, like I got. It was during the annual sale, that got me a free PCS mobile base I never used. Mine sits on a 4" high permanent base.


PS: I got curious, and checked Amazon prices. All are 3HP, 30-36" tables with Beis clone fences.

PM 1000.... $2049
Jet............ 2349
Delta Unisaw... 2599
SawStop PCS... 2899
PM 2000...... 3371
SawStop ICS.... 4267

[Steve Demuth]

So the only accidents you've had in 10+ years were kickbacks which a sawstop does nothing to protect you from that any other saw can't also do with the right equipment. You say you're already safety conscious. That's at least 95% of avoiding an accident right there. I'd put the money into something else.

Once, maybe twice, in my life I've knicked my finger tip on a table saw blade. I was young, stupid, impatient, inexperienced, doing something I shouldn't have been (ripping small strips without a push stick), and using about as crappy a benchtop saw as you could find. Neither required more than a band-aid to patch up. A table saw accident is not necessarily the life changing expensive event some would have you believe. That's like saying if you have a fender bender you'll never walk again. Thousands of people die every year in car wrecks. Millions of people a year have car wrecks without any injury whatsoever. If cars were depicted as some depict table saws the roads would be empty.

It's true that most table saw accidents don't put people in hospital, just as most car accidents don't. I"ve had both and never been hospitalized as a result. But it's also true that tens of thousands of lives are saved and grievous injuries prevented every year by automated safety devices like airbags in cars every year, and tens of thousands more die. Likewise, many table saw accidents do put people in hospital, and cost them digits, limbs or function. Surgeons at my hospital have re-attached more than one entire forearm in the last couple of years due to table saw accidents that would have been minor incidents on a Sawstop. That's multiple young, working men who will suffer months of surgery and healing, and never have full use of one of their hands again.

I don't care whether you love or hate Sawstop, own one or wouldn't be caught dead in a shop with one. That's your business. But dismissing the injuries caused by table saws because many are not serious, and the value Sawstop has in preventing the many serious injuries that do occur is just too bad.

[Simon MacGowen]

It's true that most table saw accidents don't put people in hospital, just as most car accidents don't. I"ve had both and never been hospitalized as a result. But it's also true that tens of thousands of lives are saved and grievous injuries prevented every year by automated safety devices like airbags in cars every year, and tens of thousands more die. Likewise, many table saw accidents do put people in hospital, and cost them digits, limbs or function. Surgeons at my hospital have re-attached more than one entire forearm in the last couple of years due to table saw accidents that would have been minor incidents on a Sawstop. That's multiple young, working men who will suffer months of surgery and healing, and never have full use of one of their hands again.

I don't care whether you love or hate Sawstop, own one or wouldn't be caught dead in a shop with one. That's your business. But dismissing the injuries caused by table saws because many are not serious, and the value Sawstop has in preventing the many serious injuries that do occur is just too bad.

Over the years, I found there are only two types of woodworkers when it comes to shop safety: the invincible and the rest of the world. Obviously, all SawStop users and owners, and those wanting be a SS user or owner belong to the second group.

Some anti-SS woodworkers are not just against the inventor or the SS company (at least the former SS Co.), but they are also trying to convince other people to stay away from it, even if those people can afford it.

Some of them also like to say the SS does not deal with kickbacks, which of course is a fake argument. Others use the "look, I have ten digits after x no. of years of woodworking" logic to convince themselves and others that it is a "sin" to have a finger saving technology on their -- on any -- tablesaws. I even saw one guy suggesting (in early days) that SS was sued because it failed to work. Then, someone would come out and say the SS is only a mediocre saw, despite the fact they have never even used the saw...other than watching a hot dog demo...on youtube!

All it boils down really to one thing (hint: un-related to safety): they don't like how Gass went about promoting his technology and business, while conveniently dismissing/forgetting/ignoring what caused Gass to pursue a business strategy as he did. Or turning a blind eye to many other businesses -- including many powerful drug companies -- that have been doing what Gass was seen to be doing for decades and decades. These same people won't say from now on, I won't take any medication.

It is a good stand to say I hate Gass' business ethics or whatever, but it is another thing to try to belittle his invention and to try to persuade others from getting it, because Gass would benefit financially. We are talking about injuries and as human beings, we should help each other keep that to a minimum.

I hope the new owner will put the SS technology in more machines and tools (first Festool SS tablesaw? or first Festool SS mitre saw?).

Simon

[Tim M Tuttle]

I hope the new owner will put the SS technology in more machines and tools (first Festool SS tablesaw? or first Festool SS mitre saw?).

Simon

Wasn't that his original mission and they all told him to get lost? I was in his shoes I'd throw every extra dollar I had at anyone trying to infringe on my patent. The CPSC stuff...eh, not a huge fan of that.