Narex Chisels - Comments on use

[Robert Engel]

I've been using Narex "premium" chisels for about 5 years. Edge retention is definitely an issue. Upside is you sure learn how to sharpen quickly ;-).

FWIW, I purchased a Stanley 750 to try out and IMO edge retention was worse then the Narex. The side bevel heights are higher, too.

I keep a little surgical black Arkansas stone right on the bench.

I believe Patrick is correct re: they do seem to get a little better the more you sharpen.

Patrick, would re-tempering have any effect, or is it just the steel?

[John C Cox]

Edge retention is a tricky subject... It doesn't correlate particularly well to measured hardness...... It seems to depend most on the carbon content and the alloy.... If your chisels are simply dulling - it's probably the steel.... for example... Current Marples chisels run around 1%C, Pfeil runs about 1.2%C and Japanese white steel chisels can run up to 1.5%C... And I would put their edge retention in that order (assuming no rolling or chipping)...

Unless you can cryo treat - it's unlikely you will make them any harder by tempering them.

I have re-hardened Narex chisels. Heat the last 1" to nonmagnetic and quench in brine. Then temper starting around 350F and testing on wood.. If it's way too brittle/chippy - re-temper 25 degrees higher at a time until the edge holds up better.... I liked mine tempered just enough so it doesn't chip/crack all over the place... I ended up happy with a very hard chisel with a 400-425F temper... I am not using hammers with these....

Be prepared for it to warp. That's why you don't re-harden more than 1" or so...

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick, would re-tempering have any effect, or is it just the steel?

As I said above, it's a low-alloy steel that behaves very similarly to HCS, so while it's very easy to sharpen it needs to be sharpened fairly often. The Stanley 750s should be in the same ballpark.

You can only make steel softer by re-tempering, never harder. You can re-heat-treat, but I wouldn't recommend that.

[ken hatch]

Interesting thread that begs the question Why?

Unless you just enjoy mucking around with metal why not buy a good chisel first and put metal to wood. I know what blows your skirt is different for everyone and YMMV.

Anyway there are some really good blacksmiths working in Japan and even a few in the UK looking for a little love.

ken

P.S. This thread reminds me of when I first started flying, training was almost about taking sand and turning it into the aircraft. As the years passed training got real and now we train "need to know" aka can you do anything about it from either of the front seats. Each is valid but I expect in working wood the need to know guys will get a lot more furniture built.

[Mike Henderson]

Interesting thread that begs the question Why?

Unless you just enjoy mucking around with metal why not buy a good chisel first and put metal to wood. I know what blows your skirt is different for everyone and YMMV.

Anyway there are some really good blacksmiths working in Japan and even a few in the UK looking for a little love.

ken

I have chisels with excellent edge retention. I purchased the Narex because people have posted positive comments about them and I was interested to learn how good (or not) they are. I teach and people ask me for recommendations. I'd like to be able to make informed comments about the different chisels out there. For example, I may be able to say that the Narex are decent chisels but the edge does not hold up as well as some more expensive chisels - and you should expect to have to touch up the edge after chopping out two (for example) pins in a dovetail. I can only make those comments if I have some experience with the product.

Beginning woodworkers often do not have the money to purchase the more expensive tools, or don't know if they are going to continue and wish to purchase less expensive tools.

I have Japanese chisels and they are good chisels with good edge retention. Some Japanese chisels are very expensive - even more than the LV PM-V11 chisels - and I don't like the handles on Japanese chisels. I've rehandled mine to western handles. I just want the hard edge on Japanese chisels and to be able to use them like the rest of my western chisels.

Mike

[You can occasionally find antique laminated western chisels but the reason for laminating chisels in the west is different than Japanese chisels. Good steel was expensive in the west and makers laminated good steel to cheaper steel in both chisels and plane irons. But they didn't harden the good steel to the level that the carbon steel is hardened in Japanese tools. A good example of this is the laminated irons in older Stanley bench planes.]

[John C Cox]

Interesting thread that begs the question Why?

Unless you just enjoy mucking around with metal why not buy a good chisel first and put metal to wood. I know what blows your skirt is different for everyone and YMMV.

Anyway there are some really good blacksmiths working in Japan and even a few in the UK looking for a little love.

ken

P.S. This thread reminds me of when I first started flying, training was almost about taking sand and turning it into the aircraft. As the years passed training got real and now we train "need to know" aka can you do anything about it from either of the front seats. Each is valid but I expect in working wood the need to know guys will get a lot more furniture built.

Ken - I can't answer for anybody else... For me - I have to pin down "Is it me or the tool..."

So... I have to answer these questions...
What does it do?
What is it actually supposed to do in real life?
Can I do anything about it?
Does it make sense for me to do it?

So... For example.. My "discovery" that the steel on the back may end up being a bit worse than the inside....
My guess is that this is a known thing with the makers - but it is assumed that the end user will grind off this softer steel in the normal, expected chisel prep...

And the old "Tradition" of lapping chisel backs completely flat would make the problem go away... And you would never even know this was a potential problem if you just lapped them all the way (or at least mostly) flat just because....

I was trying to "cheat" and prep the backs of these cheaper chisels more like a Japanese chisel... I stopped as soon as I had 1/8" of flat all the way across the bevel... Apparently that's not enough - aggressively flattening the back has significant merit beyond simply the geometry of the edge... They perform way better when you do... And so that's what I am going to do from now on.....

Yet again - they already worked out this problem long ago... It's already built into the tradition of western chisel prep...

Thanks

[William Fretwell]

I spent the best part of two days lapping the backs of my large Narex chisel set, because they were not flat, not to be traditional. Clearly I am traditional! Not only was I traditionally trying to save money, I traditionally paid the price for doing so.
Narex chisels have a characteristic rust in the 'grain' of the steel, some sizes more noticeable than others, no other chisels I have do this.
Their performance is rather good. My old blue handled steel Marples were soft like tin can.
I could have spent ten times as much but then that wouldn't have been at all traditional!

[Stewie Simpson]

William; you may find the following article an interesting read. https://logancabinetshoppe.wordpress...-stop-lapping/

regards Stewe;

[William Fretwell]

William; you may find the following article an interesting read. https://logancabinetshoppe.wordpress...-stop-lapping/

regards Stewe;

Thanks Stewie, not really a fan of the ruler trick for plane blades as once it's flat it's done, except the blade makes it's own small back bevel in use. Don't really get wood hard enough to need a back bevel in Canada, I know Derek uses one.

His direction of travel reasoning is somewhat true but the final paring of a mortice side would require balancing on the back bevel.
My last set of English chisels came flat and had the whole set good to go in 20 minutes!
I might try it on an old chisel some time.

I think craftsmen of yesteryear were far less fussy with flat and had fewer flat stones, no flat diamond plates to fuel the obsession, and were far more skilled than todays part timers.

[Derek Cohen]

mmmm ... William. I am not one to use the Ruler Trick on chisels. Nor on BD blades. In the past on BU blades with O1 steel. I prefer to keep the backs flat.

I have nothing against the RT. I think that it is excellent for beginners on BD plane blades, and if you are concerned with the possible incursion of a wear bevel on BU planes blades (I stopped being concerned about that).

My opinion about chisels is that the area immediately behind the bevel must be flat and polished as per the bevel. How else will you optimally sharpen the blade?

Chisels need coplanar backs, not lapped backs, per se.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ken hatch]

William; you may find the following article an interesting read. https://logancabinetshoppe.wordpress...-stop-lapping/

regards Stewe;

Stewie,

Interesting post. I know Ashley Iles grinds their chisels post HT and inspection for belly. Richard Maguire has mentioned on at least one occasion that his Dad always "back bevels" his chisels, he said it as an aside and implied he disapproved but what could he do, it was his classically trained Dad. Also back in the day there were no diamond hones, plate or otherwise, all they had were natural stones that were not flat and as pointed out cutters were a way to make a living not something to post on the internet about.

ken

[John C Cox]

I spent the best part of two days lapping the backs of my large Narex chisel set, because they were not flat, not to be traditional. Clearly I am traditional! Not only was I traditionally trying to save money, I traditionally paid the price for doing so.
Narex chisels have a characteristic rust in the 'grain' of the steel, some sizes more noticeable than others, no other chisels I have do this.
Their performance is rather good. My old blue handled steel Marples were soft like tin can.
I could have spent ten times as much but then that wouldn't have been at all traditional!

William, I feel for you buddy.

The thing is - don't assume that moving up market a bit will fix this.... My current experience is that it won't until you spend a LOT of money... Reports are that LN, LV, and hand forged Japanese chisels don't have this problem - so that puts you up into the $80+/chisel range... I am going to buy another roll of 100 grit PSA...

I got a brand new set of Two Cherries last week... They cost almost double Narex.... And their backs were nowhere near flat... Their steel is fantastic once they are prepped, though.

Even chisels in the $40/each range saw cutting performance on wood improve after going at the back.....

The old timers got it right on flattening backs. It makes a difference. I wish it didn't matter because it's a lot more work for me...

[Mike Henderson]

The old timers got it right on flattening backs. It makes a difference. I wish it didn't matter because it's a lot more work for me...

I've bought a fair number of antique chisels and early Stanley planes (around type 11). I've never received one with a flat back except one plane I purchased from a contemporary woodworker who did flatten the back of the plane iron. Now, maybe it just happened that I never received a tool that had been used by a "real" woodworker, but based on the sample I have, our ancestors did not do a lot of flattening of the backs of chisels and plane blades.

How many of you who purchased an old chisel or antique Stanley plane, in "as found" condition, discovered that the back was flat?

Mike

[John C Cox]

I bought antique chisels and early Stanley planes (around type 11). I've never received one with a flat back except one plane I purchased from a contemporary woodworker who did flatten the back of the plane iron. Now, maybe it just happened that I never received a tool that had been used by a "real" woodworker, but based on the sample I have, people did not do a lot of flattening of the backs of chisels and plane blades.

Mike

Lol! We must shop at the same places for old tools.... The vast majority of old planes and chisels I have picked up have never even been sharpened.... They just went to hammering on them till they stopped cutting and got another one.... And if they were sharpened - it was on a bench grinder or power sander...

But people tell me that the tradition was to flatten them...

I have seen 1 old Witherby chisel that had a very flat and well prepped back. It was in the hands of an old Luthier who "inherited" it when his master retired.. And he told me that his master inherited it from his master when he retired.... And so somebody in that chain had flattened the back...

All the apprentices and journeymen luthiers in his shop had chisels with well prepped and flattened backs...

[Bill McNiel]

Mike,
After reading numerous positive reviews here on the Creek, I purchased a Narex paring chisel a few months ago. The amount of time and energy required to flatten the back was way beyond my tolerance level. I was so put off that I have sentenced it to tool purgatory after using it a couple of times so I can't really comment on its edge retention.

Full disclosure- I like to make stuff using tools, I'm not particularly partial to working on tools. I am partial to PMV11, it sharpens quickly and holds its edge.