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Thread: Brian's guide to the galaxy (Japanese chisels)

  1. #1
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    Brian's guide to the galaxy (Japanese chisels)

    I put together a layman’s guide to Japanese chisels. I will improve upon this as I can. I will refer people to this when they email or PM me asking about Japanese chisels so if anything is glaringly incorrect please feel free to comment. I wrote this in about 15 minutes this morning in between laps around the house chasing a 3 yr old.

    Have a look:

    https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/...anese-chisels/
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

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    Brian, I'm disappointed. I searched that post for the phrases "don't panic", "42", "vogon", "ford prefect", and a few others besides and and came up empty. That being the case I feel that "guide to the galaxy" constitutes false and misleading advertising. If Elon Musk can shoot a car to Mars with "Don't Panic" displaying on the infotainment system then the least you can do is a throwaway reference or two in your "Guide to the Galaxy" blog post.

    Great overview BTW :-)

    Interesting that Koyamaichi is missing from your list of recommended brands, given their popularity here in the states. Do you not have experience with their tools, or are they just not competitive with the others?
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 02-18-2018 at 1:52 PM.

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    A few years ago I bought a set by Matsumura, similar to the ones you show. I use them often and am pleased with them except for one feature that all others seem to share. The handles are round. Fine for wide but bad for narrow chisels, as they tend to roll off the bench and so require some management. If the handles were more square that problem would be resolved and it would give the hands a quick registration, but no, a sense of oneness with the tool.

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    I don't mind "roundness" in a handle....when I am using the two or three needed for a job....the other two reside in the near benchdog hole.
    BTW..Uncle Arthur (itis) in the hands, doesn't mind grabbing a round handle....YMMV

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    Brian, I'm disappointed. I searched that post for the phrases "don't panic", "42", "vogon", "ford prefect", and a few others besides and and came up empty. That being the case I feel that "guide to the galaxy" constitutes false and misleading advertising. If Elon Musk can shoot a car to Mars with "Don't Panic" displaying on the infotainment system then the least you can do is a throwaway reference or two in your "Guide to the Galaxy" blog post.

    Great overview BTW :-)

    Interesting that Koyamaichi is missing from your list of recommended brands, given their popularity here in the states. Do you not have experience with their tools, or are they just not competitive with the others?
    Haha, I fixed that just now.

    I like them just fine, and they recommended plenty enough but I mainly prefer white 1 chisels.

    Added some info about steel and handles.
    Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 02-18-2018 at 3:55 PM.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Haha, I fixed that just now.
    There, now you have your mandatory 15 pieces of flair. Well done!

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    My main question about Japanese chisel is why you feel they are better than something like LV bench chisel? Why are they worth the extra cost?

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    Ichou-gata nomi are fishtail chisels, they’re very commonly used to aide in half-blade dovetail cutting.
    Has something passed me by? What is a half-blade dovetail?

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I like them just fine, and they recommended plenty enough but I mainly prefer white 1 chisels.
    How much of an impact do you find that difference of 0.2% C to have on real-world performance? (~1.3% in White 1 vs ~1.1% in the otherwise identical White 2).

    Koyamaichi specs their White 2 irons at Rc65-66, so it seems that they're able to hit more or less the same hardness. Based on the amount of excess Carbon above the eutectoid solubility limit, I would expect White 1 to contain about 1.7X as much Cementite (iron carbide), which would tend to make it more wear resistant. Is that what you see?

    Sorry, I can't resist trying to reverse-engineer tool steel design and selection.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 02-18-2018 at 5:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    There, now you have your mandatory 15 pieces of flair. Well done!
    Thank you kindly!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    My main question about Japanese chisel is why you feel they are better than something like LV bench chisel? Why are they worth the extra cost?
    I have never used LV chisels so I really can't say. I know I like Japanese chisels and value is subjective and individual. It was worth it to me at one time to spend considerably more on paring chisels than I would probably would currently but I'm glad that I did as I enjoy them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Has something passed me by? What is a half-blade dovetail?

    jtk
    Thanks Jim, fixed that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    How much of an impact do you find that difference of 0.2% C to have on real-world performance? (~1.3% in White 1 vs ~1.1% in the otherwise identical White 2).

    Koyamaichi specs their White 2 irons at Rc65-66, so it seems that they're able to hit more or less the same hardness. Based on the amount of excess Carbon above the eutectoid solubility limit, I would expect White 1 to contain about 1.7X as much Cementite (iron carbide), which would tend to make it more wear resistant. Is that what you see?

    Sorry, I can't resist trying to reverse-engineer tool steel design and selection.
    That must be what I am seeing, because it is a different experience than white 2. It's harder to sharpen on a natural stone, but also harder to wear out in use. It takes a considerable amount of use for any of these chisels to form a noticeable burr in normal use.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

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    Well done. And nice looking website.
    "Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."

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    Thanks Andy!

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    Maybe someone who has experience with both traditional and Japanese chisel could comment about what is better with Japanese chisels. Maybe Warren or Derek for example?

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    I only have two Japanese Chisels (white steel Oiire Nomi) but they hold a very sharp edge much longer than any of my various western chisels (except Barr). For deep mortises they are a bit short to work with, otherwise they are a pleasure to use.
    I'm not looking forward to tapping them out, not had to do that yet.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

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    Pat, I am not an expert, but I will offer an observation about the bench chisels.

    First of all, in my limited experience, the chisels that hold an edge for the longest time chopping dovetails are Japanese Koyamaichi. There are better nomi around, but I have yet to use a better Western chisel (in terms of steel) than Veritas PM-V11 (no, I have not used vintage English steel from the 18 hundreds, and so I cannot comment). The edge holding of a Koyamaichi is better than the edge holding of the Veritas. Further, this does not come with any sharpening limitations. It is all in the hammered preparation of the blade, its lamination, and the hardness of the cutting angle. The steel of my Kiyohisa is superior still to the Koyamaichi. these blades sharpen so easily, yet hold an edge forever (OK, you know what I mean). Now, as we go up the ladder, we find progressively better blades. What is important to recognise is that even the cheap Japanese nomi are capable of superior performance. I have really middle-of-the-road (by Western standards) Oiire-nomi that I purchased 20 years ago, and they have excellent blades that have never chipped.

    The question asked is why do I then also use Western chisels ... why not just stick to Japanese? The answer is that the Japanese chisels are my preferred chisels for chopping, such as chopping out dovetails in hardwoods. Their bench chisels, and this includes the "dovetail" chisels, are designed to be used with a gennou. They should be seen as a team. Yes, you can chop with a Western chisel, but the Japanese chisel has a lower centre of gravity, and is designed to be struck with a steel hammer, the gennou. This method affords great precision. The chisel is held in position and the gennou creates the down force. There is no wandering of the hand or the handle. Again yes, this is not the sole domain of the Japanese chisel, but it is their prime method of use.

    Western chisels make better all rounders than Japanese chisels - you can hit them or push them, and they are more comfortable to hold than the Japanese oirie nomi, which is hooped.

    No doubt we will hear from Stanley. He is the expert here.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

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