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Thread: Ray Iles Mortise Chisel

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Jeff, I have the 1/4" and 3/8" RI's and the 3/8" is huge. The 1/2" is Huger (is that a word? )!

    Regarding D2 (in the RI) and A2 (in the LN), I spent time testing the Veritas mortice chisels pre-production. I chops miles of mortices in PM-V11 and A2 versions. The PM shaded the A2, but I was really impressed with the A2. I gave up trying to use both steels until dull. Those railing against A2 are being influenced by what they read on the forums. It is a fine steel for mortice chisels.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Huger is a word, now! I bought the 1/2" to chop out bench planes. What a beast.

    For the record, I have never had a problem with A2, and don't buy in to the bad wrap it gets on the forums, even for plane blades. Never have. I own several Lie Nielsen planes with A2 irons. They all work great, and I've never felt the need to buy Hock O1 replacements for them, like so many do. There's a guy on facebook who sells them (O1 replacements) like their the savior of a LN plane. What a joke. I put O1 irons in my planes, because that's what's available. If I end up starting to make my own tapered irons (buying a surface grinder very, very soon), I'll do so in O1, as well, because of the ease of heat treat. My LN planes work beautifully, and I have no problems getting those silky shavings from my 4 1/2.

    The D2 in the RI chisels in this discussion is tough as nails, too, but I'd expect that out of steel this stout, and at these angles. The instruction pamphlet that came with them discussed the difficulty of sharpening them, but I'm guessing that must be a problem with certain stones I'm unfamiliar with, because I have had zero trouble sharpening mine on paper/film/whatever it's called.
    Jeff

  2. #32
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    Jeff; when you read reviews that suggest LVs A2 has substantially better edge retention than LNs A2 the plot thickens to the stage of nausea.
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 02-18-2018 at 7:40 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Heath View Post
    The D2 in the RI chisels in this discussion is tough as nails, too, but I'd expect that out of steel this stout, and at these angles. The instruction pamphlet that came with them discussed the difficulty of sharpening them, but I'm guessing that must be a problem with certain stones I'm unfamiliar with, because I have had zero trouble sharpening mine on paper/film/whatever it's called.
    This has already been covered in one of the other 2 threads, but D2's wear resistance mostly comes from Chromium carbides, like A2's. D2 just has more of them.

    Quartz is softer than Chromium carbide, so people with natural silicate stones (Arks etc) are out of luck. Alumina is harder than Chromium carbide, so most people with synthetic stones (Indias, waterstones, Spyderco, etc) will find that D2 sharpens just fine. That's really all there is to it. As always, there is no magic :-).
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 02-18-2018 at 8:01 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    Jeff; when you read reviews that suggest LVs A2 has substantially better edge retention than LNs A2 the plot thickens to the stage of nausea.
    Metallurgy is a complicated business unfortunately, and there are things that manufacturers can do to change the performance out of even very old steels like A2. See pp 79-80 here for a particularly relevant example. We know for a fact that LN is doing what's described there (austenitizing at higher-than-normal temperature to optimize grain structure, and then refrigerating to convert the resulting retained austenite), because they've said so.

    With that said, I don't see much difference between my A2 LN and LV irons. Both have access to highly competent metallurgists, and they're both using state-of-the-art techniques. LN makes a bigger deal out of "cryo treatment", but they're both doing it for at least some of their steels (cryo is part of the standard HT schedule for CTS-XHP/PM-V11).

    Reviewers hallucinate the darndest things IMO.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 02-18-2018 at 8:03 PM.

  5. #35
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    I'll let you guys work out all that stuff.........I work wood. I sharpen tool. I go back to working wood. The rest doesn't interest me much. The science that interests me is getting to Mars.
    Jeff

  6. #36
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    I also own and love this tool remarkably intuitive and effective tool (1/4" and 3/8"). I did experience edge failure (chipping) initially. That issue is common, explainable and easily addressed. I ground back a little, less than an 1/8th", maybe 1/16th". Problem solved. Just a heads up for folks who plan to buy this excellent tool.

  7. #37
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    I think I read RI used D2 because it was more available in the UK in the sizes he wanted. I think that's the made in UK chisel you can only buy in New York and that's on a good day!
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  8. #38
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    I have one, love it. Methinks one made with a foam blade that compresses into the handle would make an EXCELLENT Halloween/stage murder prop.

    I'm just sayin'.....
    It came to pass...
    "Curiosity is the ultimate power tool." - Roy Underhill
    The road IS the destination.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    I think I read RI used D2 because it was more available in the UK in the sizes he wanted. I think that's the made in UK chisel you can only buy in New York and that's on a good day!
    Joel Moskowitz claimed in his blog that RI used D2 because Joel asked him to (about halfway down, para starting with "A few discussions"). Joel also states on the product page that he originally wanted A2 but chose D2 because it was more available in Sheffield, which is probably what you saw.

    Those chisels are effectively a "bespoke product" for which Joel (TFWW) has historically been the sole distributor, so his recollection seems credible.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    Joel Moskowitz claimed in his blog that RI used D2 because Joel asked him to (about halfway down, para starting with "A few discussions"). Joel also states on the product page that he originally wanted A2 but chose D2 because it was more available in Sheffield, which is probably what you saw.

    Those chisels are effectively a "bespoke product" for which Joel (TFWW) has historically been the sole distributor, so his recollection seems credible.
    Found it:
    "Regular modern carbon steel would be okay, but we thought that the extra toughness of A2 might be better. But in England, where these chisels are made, A2 is hard to get in the sizes we needed. So we decided on D2, a slightly more expensive, more durable, overall better tool steel."
    I've not read his blog yet but did just read the slight back bevel recommendation which I had forgotten.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    Found it:
    "Regular modern carbon steel would be okay, but we thought that the extra toughness of A2 might be better. But in England, where these chisels are made, A2 is hard to get in the sizes we needed. So we decided on D2, a slightly more expensive, more durable, overall better tool steel."
    Yeah, that's the bit from the product page that I was referring to. Describing D2 as "overall better" than A2 is... interesting. D2 has over twice as much Cr (12% vs 5%) and therefore much higher Chromium carbide content. Those carbides give great abrasion resistance, but when conventionally processed they result in a very coarse grain structure. As the old saw goes, D2 takes a crappy edge and holds it forever. That's perfectly fine for a mortise chisel, but I'd run screaming from D2 bench chisels or plane blades.

    Powdered-metal D2-ish steels are great though. I've used two (Crucible CPM-D2 and Carpenter CTS-XHP, aka PM-V11) and they're both very nice all-round tool steels.

  12. #42
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    Interestingly, Patrick, I know of at least one high-end plane maker that has used D2 (as an option) in his planes for many years. That is Philip Marcou (in New Zealand). Philip is not only very knowledgeable about steel - he was also a knife maker - he has been a professional furniture maker for a few decades. Philip has said to me that it is in the heat treating. I've never pressed him on this topic, but he also speaks from a practical position.

    I have a D2-bladed plane which I built. This is a single iron jack, and uses a very thick blade.



    It gets very sharp, and holds it a long, long time.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by ken hatch View Post
    Tony,

    Two points....It's a mortise chisel, a wedge, not a paring chisel. It doesn't need to slice your finger open at the slightest touch. It just needs to hold a kinda sharp edge through some slight abuse. The LN chisels are A2 and every bit as hard to sharpen as D2, in fact I can sharpen the Ray Iles on Ark stones, the LN not so much. I have the LN mortise chisels and they are great for cleaning out the mortise after chopping with the Ray Iles but for chopping most mortises there are better chisels for the job than the LN's.

    ken
    Good to know, considering the Isles Chisels.

  14. I carelessly snapped the tip off one of these chisels once.

  15. #45
    Over time i accumulated a set of Ward Pigstickers from 1/8 inch to 1/2 inch. They're just plain carbon steel but they work fine for me.

    A few I bought without handles so they have new handles. The rest are original.

    Mike

    Pigsticker-1b.jpg Pigsticker-2b.jpg
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

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