need advice on track saw related purchases for building built-ins at home

[Dave Sabo]

I second the outsourcing route. You’re going to need to make a lot of casework to underwrite 2grand worth of new tools.

Festool’s gee wiz system is already drawing the ire of a lot of faithful users for their implementation of the pairing and unpairing protocol. Even an engineer close to the program is on record questioning their choice. But the system is not even available here , and no word forthcoming as to when.

That said , Makita announced their Bluetooth system over a year ago and their Vac is cordless too ! So is their miter saw - something only Festool dreams about - along with brushless motors on those tools. And you can order one in the USA right now.

https://www.makitatools.com/aws

But hey, if you need an expensive led light or 16 different sanders you often can’t get abrasives for locally and a fanboy support network of the first order; then they’ve got you well covered.

Lots us of choices for high quality Vacs with tool triggers other than festool. Fein has been mentioned, but Metabo, Bosch, Mirka, Hilti, Nilfisk, Makita, DeWalt, and Sthil all have comparable units. Even Milwaukee is getting into the game.

[Edwin Santos]

Every time you buy lumber you will use the long track to straighten the first edge.

Unless your lumber supplier offers lumber SL1E (straight lined one edge). In my market the cost premium of buying lumber this way is negligible, we're talking pennies, so it's a no brainer for the time you would save.

I can't help but add this - your original post contains a few clues suggesting money and budget is a consideration for you. If so, you should know that tooling up the way some have advised, and doing what you're proposing to do may be the single most expensive (and demanding) way to furnish your home with cabinetry and built-ins.

Of course, part of the calculus is determining what your time is worth, how much time you have, what your learning curve might be, whether there is any kind of deadline involved, whether you're going to be paying retail pricing for materials, whether you love woodworking, and whether you want to continue to love woodworking.

I'm not trying to talk you out of anything or be negative. Just go forward with open eyes.
Edwin

[Rob Wolfbrandt]

Unless your lumber supplier offers lumber SL1E (straight lined one edge). In my market the cost premium of buying lumber this way is negligible, we're talking pennies, so it's a no brainer for the time you would save.

I can't help but add this - your original post contains a few clues suggesting money and budget is a consideration for you. If so, you should know that tooling up the way some have advised, and doing what you're proposing to do may be the single most expensive (and demanding) way to furnish your home with cabinetry and built-ins.

Of course, part of the calculus is determining what your time is worth, how much time you have, what your learning curve might be, whether there is any kind of deadline involved, whether you're going to be paying retail pricing for materials, whether you love woodworking, and whether you want to continue to love woodworking.

I'm not trying to talk you out of anything or be negative. Just go forward with open eyes.
Edwin

Hi Edwin,
I appreciate the comments and agree with them - you don't sound negative to me. Everyone's input is helpful. I'm going to try addressing your comment. Hopefully it won't be too wordy and you'll get a better understanding of where I'm coming from.

First of all, I'm a pretty do-it-yourself kind of guy. That said, I do try to balance this with hiring things out that I don't have time or interest for. For example, we bumped our kitchen out 6 feet (20' x 6') and even though I could do the foundation work (I worked for a brick layer for a few years when I was younger) the framing, and the drywall, I opted to hire someone to do these things (and hired someone to spray foam insulation and move some plumbing). I, on the other hand, gutted the kitchen (removed cabinets and soffit containing electrical, removed old pantry walls, and removed old floor) and did the electrical (I'm an electrical engineer so wanted to do this). I also installed the hardwood floors and my wife painted the interior. In fact, today we are hanging ship lap in a portion of the ceiling which is higher and cathedral. Rather than build cabinets for the kitchen, we ordered them (they arrive next week!) and I'll be installing those and building some of the island, as well as gluing some butcher block pieces together for the island's counter top. To me, this balance of building some things myself and buying some prebuilt things, along with hiring some labor and doing some things myself makes the most sense economically (and I mean that in terms of time and money).

As far as the expense of the tools, I'm just trying to spend wisely. I'm not so much limited by a maximum amount to spend per say, as I am by my own self trying to maximize value. For example, someone had voiced their opinion that the Dewalt tracksaw was 99% as good as the Festool at 1/2 the cost. This is the sort of stuff I'm trying to take into consideration. Also, this stuff will pay for itself in a few ways. (1) my wife doesn't really like having contractors in the house (no offense to any of you!!!) So if I build the cabinets myself it avoids this. Happy wife, happy life. (2) My wife is a really good designer by nature and usually designs the stuff we build. We work together well and end up with exactly what we want. (3) I have a lot of built-ins to do here, and potentially the next house, my daughter's house when she's older, etc.... it's a skill I can use for life for sure and I want to get better and better at it and having an efficient workflow will go a long way.

Just a little more regarding my DYI projects:
I remodeled my last house over 12 years. This included refinishing the existing kitchen cabinets, adding on to the existing island by building a bookshelf on the back side and butcher block on the top, new wood floors and recessed lighting throughout the house, a wall mounted entertainment center, walk-in shower, and many more things. We purchased our recent home two years ago. It's in a neighborhood we love, has good bones, but was extremely outdated. So the day I bought it I had a dumpster for 18 days and we completely gutted 2600 sq ft of living space. Over the last two years I've done more DYI that I care to mention (and you care to read), but some stuff includes installing windows and sliding glass doors, cedar siding, hardwood flooring, tile, drywall, baseboard, gas fireplace, chimney cap, insulation, and water softener and filter. I've also moved walls and raised beams over doorways flush into the floor above to hide them. I also rebuilt a staircase and a stair railing, and so on. My only point here is I'm not going into this completely blind.

Again, I do appreciate your response, so thank you.

[Edwin Santos]

Hi Edwin,
I appreciate the comments and agree with them - you don't sound negative to me. Everyone's input is helpful. I'm going to try addressing your comment. Hopefully it won't be too wordy and you'll get a better understanding of where I'm coming from.


Again, I do appreciate your response, so thank you.

Hi Rob,
Thanks for this background, and I would say you've thought it through very well and you are more than experienced enough to know what you're dealing with. In fact, in your case I'd find the higher grade, higher price tools justifiable because you will surely get your money's worth out of them.

Getting back to Gear Acquisition Syndrome, I don't know what facilities you have for finishing. If you're currently restricted to hand applying, then I would vote for considering a good HVLP spray system on your list. I have a Fuji Q4 which has paid for itself over and over. Whether your work will be painted, stained or natural, spray finishing rocks for larger projects and especially trim. If you're already spray finishing, then you're set. Good stuff!

[Greg R Bradley]

A Dewalt tracksaw isn't 99% as good as the Festool unless your needs coincide with the short list where the Dewalt has an advantage over Festool. I would say the same for Makita. The Festool isn't anything even close to twice the price of either Dewalt or Makita.

Dewalt tracks are different than everyone else but the saw itself has a second channel to ride on the Festool standard, which also includes Makita. So the Dewalt will ride on Festool/Makita tracks but not the other way around. Just like you can buy a Mafel and use it on their tracks and also on the Festool/Makita Standard.

The easy choice for me for a less expensive saw was the Makita SP6000. It has a bit more power than the Festool but doesn't have a riving knife, the off-side anti-splinter and doesn't have the Festool Plug-it cord. To be clear, I bought a Festool 30 years ago, then when they upgraded to the better track system, I felt I couldn't justify the price and went with a Makita, then upgraded to a Festool, then added a second personal Makita. So I have and use the Festool and Makita personally and have a Makita in a business.

The expensive Makita cordless and corded vac is expensive and not very powerful on batteries. It is also tiny in capacity. It's market is going to be someone that has real vacs and has to have cordless for OSHA requirements. Similar to their cordless backpack vac.

Ikea butcher block will be a disaster if you try to cut them. They have voids and are held together with lots of metal. Look elsewhere.

[Rob Wolfbrandt]

Hi Rob,
Getting back to Gear Acquisition Syndrome, I don't know what facilities you have for finishing. If you're currently restricted to hand applying, then I would vote for considering a good HVLP spray system on your list.

Funny you mention this! I was just reading reviews of these online thinking about how sweet it'd be to spray these built-ins as well as the baseboard and casing I've yet to install on the first floor! I was on rocker's site buying a dust extraction hose and noticed this one was on sale. Any chance you've heard anything about this rockler HVLP? http://www.rockler.com/rockler-finis...nt-cup-and-lid I researched this a couple of years ago and read great stuff about the Fujis - maybe I'll look into those again. Thanks!

[Rob Wolfbrandt]

Regarding the cordless Makita, the one I'm looking at takes 2 18V batteries to run at 36 V. Toolnut is selling the saw, 4 batteries, and a 55" rail for $499. All the reviews I've seen are really good (28 5 stars on Toolnut, great reviews elsewhere, too). Is this the saw you're referring, too?

At the moment I've got my cart loaded with that Makita package, an 118" Makita guide rail, and the router adapter. All of this for $715, seems pretty good to me.

Regarding the butcher block, I cut this in my last home and it turned out perfectly. There was no metal in those. You have me worried that something has changed. It'd be really scary to be sawing along and encounter some metal. I wonder if you're referring to a different product? They sell standard, end-grain, glued butcher block (which is what I'll use), but they also sell other table tops that look like butcher block, but really have fillers in them. Maybe you're referring to these?

[Greg R Bradley]

Regarding the cordless Makita, the one I'm looking at takes 2 18V batteries to run at 36 V. Toolnut is selling the saw, 4 batteries, and a 55" rail for $499. All the reviews I've seen are really good (28 5 stars on Toolnut, great reviews elsewhere, too). Is this the saw you're referring, too?

At the moment I've got my cart loaded with that Makita package, an 118" Makita guide rail, and the router adapter. All of this for $715, seems pretty good to me.

Regarding the butcher block, I cut this in my last home and it turned out perfectly. There was no metal in those. You have me worried that something has changed. It'd be really scary to be sawing along and encounter some metal. I wonder if you're referring to a different product? They sell standard, end-grain, glued butcher block (which is what I'll use), but they also sell other table tops that look like butcher block, but really have fillers in them. Maybe you're referring to these?

The corded/cordless Makita I'm referring to is the VACUUM. If you are going to have a cordless saw, you would need that vac in order that the saw can turn on the vac. I would try it in person like I did and make up your own mind. We were looking at them in a heavy construction company due to the new vacuum requirements when drilling masonry.
Link: https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/XCV08Z

The BB that had the problem was sold as countertops. It was around 10 years ago. Perhaps they upgraded the product. I just know lots of people posted info on ruining tools at that time.

I can see a Makita cordless track saw being heavy with two batteries. BTW, I love my Makita 2x18v Chainsaw and Blower so not against the setup in general. It just seems like a tracksaw isn't such a big advantage being cordless since you have a vac hose anyway.

[Rob Wolfbrandt]

The corded/cordless Makita I'm referring to is the VACUUM. If you are going to have a cordless saw, you would need that vac in order that the saw can turn on the vac. I would try it in person like I did and make up your own mind. We were looking at them in a heavy construction company due to the new vacuum requirements when drilling masonry.
Link: https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/XCV08Z

The BB that had the problem was sold as countertops. It was around 10 years ago. Perhaps they upgraded the product. I just know lots of people posted info on ruining tools at that time.

I can see a Makita cordless track saw being heavy with two batteries. BTW, I love my Makita 2x18v Chainsaw and Blower so not against the setup in general. It just seems like a tracksaw isn't such a big advantage being cordless since you have a vac hose anyway.

Oh, the vacuum... I see - thanks. To be honest, I had the same thought about the saw.... what's the point in going cordless with power if you've still got to hook a hose up to it?! That said, the package deal is really good and having one less cord might be a good thing? Also, I had heard the Makita power cord is short - at least this would get around that. I hadn't considered the weight. Lots of pros and cons....

Edit: I'm probably over analyzing now, but I could buy the corded Makita and put a longer power cord on it if its length is really a problem.

[Edwin Santos]

Funny you mention this! I was just reading reviews of these online thinking about how sweet it'd be to spray these built-ins as well as the baseboard and casing I've yet to install on the first floor! I was on rocker's site buying a dust extraction hose and noticed this one was on sale. Any chance you've heard anything about this rockler HVLP? http://www.rockler.com/rockler-finis...nt-cup-and-lid I researched this a couple of years ago and read great stuff about the Fujis - maybe I'll look into those again. Thanks!

Rob,
Sorry, I don't know much about that particular Rockler HVLP unit. However, I notice they mention Earlex being involved in it. A couple of years ago Fine Woodworking gave a Best Buy rating to the Earlex 5500 HVLP and I have a friend who has one that loves it. It's more expensive than the Rockler, and looks to have a better gun, more professional build, but at a much lower price point than the Fuji or Apollo systems. Look at the CFM/PSI specs. More is better. The PSI is not listed on the Rockler page but the reviews look positive.
Edwin

[Rob Wolfbrandt]

Home Depot sells a line of Bessy parallels that are nice. Expensive, but nice.

Wow. I just looked those up on Home Depot's website. They have a video that illustrates the functionality of these clamps and I'm sold. I have some smaller C clamps, and one handed Irwin bar clamps, but I've been wanting something like these Bessy parallels. Thanks for the tip.

All your other comments are helpful, too. Thanks for those.

[Mike Goetzke]

Oh, the vacuum... I see - thanks. To be honest, I had the same thought about the saw.... what's the point in going cordless with power if you've still got to hook a hose up to it?! That said, the package deal is really good and having one less cord might be a good thing? Also, I had heard the Makita power cord is short - at least this would get around that. I hadn't considered the weight. Lots of pros and cons....

Edit: I'm probably over analyzing now, but I could buy the corded Makita and put a longer power cord on it if its length is really a problem.

Rob - good luck with your project. About 6 years ago I remodeled our living room, dinning room, and kitchen into one great room by myself (weekends and after work). Lot of tear down and rough construction. I had a 10' x 5' island, and around 30' "L" of cabinets. Suggest you get help. My project lasted almost 2-years and burned me out pretty good. End result was better than expected so well worth the effort.

On the cabinet build I used my track saw system for almost all of the cabinet build. My system was Eurekazone and I used corded Makita saws. I have a Festool vac but ended up using my large shopvac. I had to flip the switch as needed but wasn't a big deal. The cord really is a pain constantly getting hooked on the rail and such. The hose is big enough to find it's way around most obstacles plus I hung it from the ceiling. If your not a pro, I'm not, get used to thinking in production mode - do repetitive cuts all at once. Build a drying rack to hold the cabinet parts if you end up finishing them yourself. etc.

I decided to pull the trigger on the Makita track saw system plus 118" rail since I've been slowly getting rid of my E-Z stuff. I have almost every 18V-LXT cordless tool Makita offers and some of my batteries are probably 10+ years old so the 4-5AHr battery package was the deal swinger for me. It's supposed to be delivered today - can't wait. I looked at the TSO square. Looks nice but almost $200! I resisted - for now. Will look for reasonable alternatives.

Mike

[William M Johnson]

I am going to offer my $0.02 worth here. I recently completed a major remodel of my house and changed out all the the yellow oak to mahogany. I started out with the usual table saw, miter saw, router and Kreg jig. During the process, my processes evolved. Including buying a molder, shaper, tracksaw and hand planes.

Below is a synopsis of what I learned.

Any tracksaw is better than any table saw for breaking down sheet goods. Oops I feel the flamethrowers warming up. A couple of caveats to that statement , I worked alone in a small shop. I had a PM66 with an Excalibur Slider. It was good but I got tired of lugging the plywood around. It was dangerous even though I fitted a SharkGuard and blade guard. It spewed sawdust even though I had an overarm suction. It also left tool marks on each cut.

I bought the EZ Smart System and although it was far from perfect it became apparent that it was much better for my purposes than the table saw. It had several limitations that I won't go into here, since nobody has yet recommend it. At this point I knew nothing about Festool other than it was over priced and kind of cheap looking. After doing some research I decide to buy the TS55 and sold my EZ Smart. At the time there was only about $100 price difference between all the competing track saws.

This purchase changed my life. The only thing I see people talking about when comparing the different models is price. I think this is grossly misleading . The TS55 does several things that I think you need to consider before purchasing another brand.

1. No Tool Marks
2 No tear out
3. Very little saw dust.

I don't know why nobody mentions these issues, because if your saw doesn't handle them it is a lot more work to correct these issues . Every cut with my PM66 or EZ Smart left tool marks that had to be removed either with sand paper or hand plane (more on this later). I have not used any of the other brands but I would make sure that any you are considering leave a "finish ready" edge after the cut. My edges with the Festool are so good that I put my jointer in storage. I now joint exclusively with the TS55. It is faster, safer and does a better job than my American made PM jointer. I have built several tables using the TS55 for the jointing. There is no touchup required, no gaps and I don't risk fingers.

The TS55 has an easily replaceable strip on the track and I assume that the others do as well. My question is, have you checked with your dealer to see if they carry replacement strips. Every Festool dealer I have seen has the replacements on the shelf available for sale. The TS55 also has a "cut to fit" tear out preventer on the saw itself. I have not noticed this on any of the other brands. This is also replaceable and available. I have never seen a replacement for a DeWalt or Makita, I am not sure if they have this feature or not. Tearout on cabinet grade ply is a big deal, why take a chance?

I hate sawdust, now. When I started this project I didn't know any better. I bet I breathed 10 lbs of sawdust and I got sick because of it. The TS55 produces very little saw dust. Not perfect but a whole lot less that any tablesaw or the EX Smart set up I had. I now don't tolerate saw dust in my workshop. Use a HEPA filter if you are using a shop vac. The tiny particle get spewed out of the standard shop vac filter like a fog. These small particles are much more problematic that chips.

The MFT was a tougher decision as it seemed like a really overpriced table, as other posters have mentioned. Today it is without a doubt the most used tool in my shop. I never take it down because I use it so much. Yes there are much cheaper ways to get the job done, but for portability and flexibility it cannot be beat. I have most of the clamping elements except the ratcheting clamps (the screw type work fine). I use the table for cutting, sanding, glueups etc. I would not be without it. BTW I also have a 7' long Roubo bench that now hardly ever gets used. The only weak spot on the MFT, besides price, is you cannot hand plane on it. I now have 2 of them. You can tie them together for large cabinets glueups or for handling a full sheet of plywood.

There are a couple of other tools I found mandatory for sheet goods.

Woodpecker 1281 - this is probably the second most used tool in the shop
Woodpecker TS24 - If you are going to use a track saw this is mandatory. A truly great tool for those jobs
Kreg Jig - Mandatory for the boxes and really nice for attaching face frames etc

Now I'm really going to step in it. In my experience you cannot make "furniture grade" cuts with any 12" sliding miter saw. You will not cut true angles and you will have tool marks that require hand work to remove. I fought this making about 50 raised panel drawer fronts and doors. I built my Roubo and spent a large fortune on hand planes in order to get the quality of fit I needed. No matter how well set up I just could not get any of the brands available at Home Depot to cut true and smooth. The hand planes were great but slow. Then I found the Kapex. They are ridiculously expensive, arguably unreliable and not what I would choose to build a deck or frame a house. They are however amazingly accurate on the cuts and the cuts are smooth. The first cut I made was on 8/4 walnut. Just to see what it would do I plunged in and out 3 times on a 8" wide board before finishing the cut. When I looked at it I almost passed out. It was shiny. I don't mean it was smooth it was shiny ready for finish. And it was exactly 90 degrees.

My point in bringing this up is that you need to consider how much rework you are willing to do to save a couple of bucks.

Let the flaming begin

Bill

[Rob Wolfbrandt]

Hi Bill,
I enjoyed reading your post, and as I've said a few times now, I've found everyone's posts extremely useful. And you're obviously way more experienced at this stuff than I am, so hopefully my response isn't too far off the mark

First of all, I actually purchased my MFT/3! One came up on Craigslist near me for $500, which was barely used at all. New they are $685, so I went for it! And I purchased 4 Qwas dogs!

Clamps is a tough decision. I know it makes sense to buy them as I need them (and to some extent I will), but I'd like to get a decent kit to start. I'm thinking of getting 2 of the Festool Ratcheting Quick Clamps, 2 of the Festool Screw Clamps (4-11/16"), and 4 50" Bessey Parallel Clamps. Hoping this will be enough to get me going.

The Precision Dog Mount with Kreg Automax Clamp looks appealing, but there seems to be some debate on whether or not these put too much strain on the table, so I've not decided on that yet. I also have my trusty shelf liner pad that I find works terrific for holding objects in place while sanding so I'm not too interested in the Festool Clamping Elements. Additionally, I own 2 Kreg right angle clamps, one Kreg face clamp, a few Irwin one handed bar clamps in various sizes, some jaw clamps, and some old metal C clamps.

Regarding the cordless Makita track saw - I hear nothing but good about it so I think I'm going to give it a shot. If it doesn't meet expectations I figure I can exchange it for the Festool. I'll look very closely at the items you mentioned: tool marks, tear out, and saw dust. Based on reviews and videos I've watched I really expect it to do well in all 3 categories. Also, assuming it does well, if down the road for whatever reason I need another track saw I can consider the Festool then, when I'm a more informed customer. If I did change over I could list my Makita on Craigslist or give it to my brother, who's always wanted a track saw.

A few comments about why I'm going cordless:
I feel like having one less cord will suit me (I'll still have a hose connected to a dust extractor). I actually asked a guy that owns a corded Makita if he thought buying a cordless one would be silly given you're still tethered to a dust collector and he actually thought having one less cord would be nice. Oh - and he had extended the length of his Makita's power cord (some have complained they're too short).

One poster commented that he'd be concerned about the weight of the cordless saw with two batteries. I'm a pretty strong dude, so I'm not worried about that. (I'm totally kidding....) I watched a video comparing the saws and the person comparing them said they had similar weights. I'm not too worried about weight. Seems like the bigger TS75 might be heavier and some guys use that just fine.

Toolnut stocks the Makita Splinter Guard strips, as well as the non-slip strips. Not that this detail matters (and it could be inaccurate information), but I even came across one post on FOG (or maybe here) in which a couple of guys (or maybe one - I'm not going to bother looking it up right now - please don't make me - I've read way too many forum entries driving myself mad researching all of this stuff) said they preferred one of these strips over the Festool (as in they put the Makita strip on the Festool track).

Regarding Dust Collection, my plan is start with what I have, which is a Ridgid SNR 12 Gallon Shop Vac, with a hepa filter, and a Dust Deputy. In the future I might be interested in upgrading to a Fein or Festool dust extractor. Oh and I'm purchasing this Rockler hose, which looks nice: http://www.rockler.com/dust-right-un...-port-hose-kit (in case the link doesn't work it's the Dust Right Universal Small Port Hose Kit). It expands from 3 to 15' long and has rubber attachment points that slide onto the tool and grip it nicely.

As of right now, I'm about to pull the trigger on: Makita Cordless Tracksaw kit (comes with 4 batteries and a 55" guide rail), Makita 118" Guide Rail, 2 extra stop flags for the MFT/3, router adapter guid for the guide rail, slop stop for the MFT/3, 2 Festool screw clamps 4-11/16", 2 festool quick ratcheting clamps (these seem stupid expensive to me), the dust hose, 4 50" Bessey Parallel Clamps, 4 of the Bessey KP Blocks, double sided tape to make my own parallel guides as shown in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idAfnNIQ5H4&t=1s). And now of course I need to look put the Woodpecker tools you've recommended!

I really was glad to read your EZ Smart comments because that was a contender for me, as well, during my initial research stage. I threw it out of the running pretty early though because a track saw simply really appeals to me.

Two of your comments have me really looking forward to my purchases! "Any tracksaw is better than any table saw for breaking down sheet goods." and Today it (the MFT/3) is without a doubt the most used tool in my shop."

Cheers,
Rob

[Rob Wolfbrandt]

Damnit Bill - those Woodpecker squares look really nice!

By the way, one item I've reluctantly decided to forgo for now is the GRS-16 Parallel Edge Guide Rail Square. To me this look really handy; however, all of my crosscuts for my first few projects should fit on the MFT/3 and I want to get as much out of that table as I can since I own it now!