Waterstones

[Jeff Heath]

Jim,


Like many others I'm drawn to sharpening post like moths to flame, great fun to read but classic everyone talking and nobody listening.

ken

Ha ha ha!!!

Ken, thanks for the good morning laugh. Guilty as charged. Coffee all over the monitor and keyboard right now.

[Ray Newman]

Colleagues: thanks for the responses. Great deal of information and opinions to digest. Between income tax prep and dealing with the VA Prosthetics Services, time went by and I have neglected a few things.

Some asked about my sharpening needs: set of routinely used and probably 30 year old Bracht (German) chisels plus a few planes – block, small Lee Valley bevel up smoother as well as a Lie-Nielsen #1, #2, and #9 for a shooting board. Also, a few "less utilized": Stanley #45 router and one or two shoulder planes. Have some Japanese chisels from a going-out-of-business- sale when in worked in California. Should sell them off as I really do not use them.

Shop does not have a sink, space is at a premium. Back in the 1990’s I had five or four King (??) water stones, but wanted something easier and with less mess. Hence the Tormek with honing wheel. Bought the Tormek, a slightly used first generation machine from another woodworker who just-had-to-have the second generation “new and improved” model. A roll about box stores the Tormek. But always need to move something to get to it, then fetch the water and wait to soak the stone.

I was under the assumption, a false assumption maybe, that I could get by with say a non-soaking three water stone set and leather honing strap on a wood block.

Some asked about the Shapton “system” quote. Clerk made it sound like I would need numerous grits to really sharpen, a special flattening stone, stone holder(s), some kind of pond, etc.

Recently, a friend advised E-Zee lap course, fine, and extra fine diamond plates and maybe a leather hone. I have no experience with diamond sharpening. While he claims his tools are sharp, I have no idea as to what he calls ”sharp”.

Once again, thanks for all information. Cheers and all the best.

[Jim Koepke]

Shop does not have a sink, space is at a premium.

No sink in my shop either, a plastic storage container from Target works fine for soaking and a gallon milk jug and a spray bottle handle the rest.

I was under the assumption, a false assumption maybe, that I could get by with say a non-soaking three water stone set and leather honing strap on a wood block.

The Sigma Power Stones, sold by Stu at Tools From Japan, look like they come close to fitting that requirement:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...98a46a890d81ef

If you do not have A2 steel in any of your blades and you want a little less set up, you may think of trying oilstones.

Recently, a friend advised E-Zee lap course, fine, and extra fine diamond plates and maybe a leather hone. I have no experience with diamond sharpening. While he claims his tools are sharp, I have no idea as to what he calls ”sharp”.

Maybe your friend will let you try a few blades sharpened on his system to see if it meets your needs. My kitchen knives are maintained on diamond hones in the kitchen, but when they need a thorough sharpening they are taken to the shop and worked on either oil or water stones depending on the outside temps.

One of the problems with discussing sharpness is it is difficult to quantify without some sort of testing. The problem with testing is it is hard to find a test on which everyone will agree.

My first test is visual. If any reflection of light can be seen at the arris it is a sign of more honing being needed.

A second test is how it feels on my finger tip or fingernail. If you have not checked knife edges with your fingers for most of your life, my suggestion is do not start now. It is likely just one of my bad habits. Testing it against a fingernail is a little less dangerous. Mostly it is checked to see if lightly touched to a fingernail to see if it catches (or sticks) and at what angle. This is another test that requires experience over time to derive any quantitative information. A friend of mine uses the tip of a fingernail dragged across a blade to find 'invisible' nicks.

Another test is the push through a sheet of writing paper. Pushed straight into the edge of a sheet of paper a sharp blade should have no trouble penetrating. The softer the paper the sharper the blade needs to be.

Many folks like to test a blade by paring the end grain of a soft wood like pine or other firs. A sharp blade can make a very light shaving without causing opening between the wood fibers.

Another test some folks do not like is shaving hair from one's arm. If one doesn't know how to control a blade for removing hair this can be dangerous. This test offers a lot of information as to the condition of an edge. If the blade is removing hair but pulling there are a few nicks or blunt spots. Smooth and removing only a little hair means the blade is likely sharp enough for most woodwork. A little sharper will remove a bit more hair. If it feels like it isn't removing any hair but leaving a clean shaven spot, then the blade is sharp and ready to go for woodworking. After this it gets in to a few more levels of extreme sharpness determined by what it does to a hanging hair. That is a test for people who use straight razors.

There is also a test set up available to determine how much force is required for a blade to sever a specific size of fiber. That may be fun for some, but not needed for woodworking.

For many woodworkers an understanding of sharpness evolves over time. What seemed sharp to me ten years ago is nothing like what seems sharp to me now.

jtk

[Warren West]

"I was under the assumption, a false assumption maybe, that I could get by with say a non-soaking three water stone set and leather honing strap on a wood block. "

Not false, this would work fine. So would 2 or 3 diamond plates, or 2 or 3 oil stones. All would work. It's really down to personal preference and what you like the most, or bugs you the least.

Given your situation, I'd go Eze-Lap Coarse and Fine and follow that with a Spyderco Medium. That leaves you with a slightly finer edge than you get off the Tormek before stropping. Quick to use, low mess and never need flattening. For a two stone solution, I'd go Eze-Lap Coarse and Superfine.

If you are refreshing edges and not doing much repair, then simply add in a Superfine Diamond and use that when you need a refresh that the strop alone can't handle, and you'd only need to fire up the Tormek to do major repairs.

Oilstones need flattening every few years and Waterstones, every few seconds. (I sharpen small carving tools that would wear holes in waterstones and I don't use jigs of any kind aside from the sv-32 when I bevel set on the Tormek.) I rarely use the Tormek though.

[Derek Cohen]

I'd go Eze-Lap Coarse and Fine and follow that with a Spyderco Medium. That leaves you with a slightly finer edge than you get off the Tormek before stropping. Quick to use, low mess and never need flattening. For a two stone solution, I'd go Eze-Lap Coarse and Superfine.

Warren, the Tormek wheel either gives you 220 grit (unrefined) or 1000 grit (refined using the surfacing stone). The Medium Spyderco is unrated by the factory, but I use one, and it is equivalent to about 4000/5000 grit. The Ultra Fine, which I also use, leaves a polished finish something like an 8000 grit. I will refine the edge further with green chrome compound.

The simple fix for the Tormek is actually to swap out the wheel for a CBN version. I dislike this idea because I use the Tormek as a grinder, not part of a sharpening system, and therefore prefer a coarser wheel. But some love this system, and for them one can get any grit wheel you like. I'd get a 220 grit, and then dry grind. The advantage here is that there is no soaking, no water needed. The wheel does not wear, and therefore setting do not need to be altered.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chet R Parks]

Stan,
In the above you state "Use short strokes on the rough stones. 1.5"? Less rocking" Which makes perfect sense. But, does that imply that you use a different length stroke on finer grit stones? Since less rocking is what one would want to achieve why wouldn't you keep using the 1.5 inch stroke? Unless it's to distribute the wear on the stone?
Chet

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Some asked about my sharpening needs: set of routinely used and probably 30 year old Bracht (German) chisels plus a few planes – block, small Lee Valley bevel up smoother as well as a Lie-Nielsen #1, #2, and #9 for a shooting board. Also, a few "less utilized": Stanley #45 router and one or two shoulder planes. Have some Japanese chisels from a going-out-of-business- sale when in worked in California. Should sell them off as I really do not use them.

Shop does not have a sink, space is at a premium. Back in the 1990’s I had five or four King (??) water stones, but wanted something easier and with less mess. Hence the Tormek with honing wheel. Bought the Tormek, a slightly used first generation machine from another woodworker who just-had-to-have the second generation “new and improved” model. A roll about box stores the Tormek. But always need to move something to get to it, then fetch the water and wait to soak the stone.

I was under the assumption, a false assumption maybe, that I could get by with say a non-soaking three water stone set and leather honing strap on a wood block.

If space is at a premium, with no sink, I would be thinking about something other than water stones. I have made the decision to stick to vintage steel and O1, so an India stone and an Arkansas are working quite nicely for me. I used Waterstones in our old place, but the new space is different, and I never quite settled on a place to sharpen that seemed to work. With oilstones there is no soaking, no water splashing on the bench, and much less flattening. Just a couple of drops of mineral oil and I am off and running. Quick wipe with a cloth when I am done and they go right back on the shelf.

From the LN and LV tools you have, it sounds like you may have some modern steels that would not work that well with oilstones. I have an A2 shoulder plane blade that seems to sharpen just fine on my oilstones, but most folks seem to think A2 and oilstones don't work well together.

George Wilson posted a number of times about his sharpening system, which is a diamond stone, and then a Spyderco medium and fine stone (I think). He just uses a little soapy water in a spray bottle to wet them. I don't own any, and there are apparently some issues with getting them flat (they sometimes don't come flat, and are very hard to flatten since the ceramic is so hard). May be an option for you, but I would read up on the pros and cons before taking the plunge.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan,
In the above you state "Use short strokes on the rough stones. 1.5"? Less rocking" Which makes perfect sense. But, does that imply that you use a different length stroke on finer grit stones? Since less rocking is what one would want to achieve why wouldn't you keep using the 1.5 inch stroke? Unless it's to distribute the wear on the stone?
Chet

Chet:

Astute observation.

The purpose of the short strokes is indeed to reduce rocking to avoid creating a horribly rounded bevel, and to use the entire stone's surface.

It is an obvious truth that human hands cannot make a plane or chisel's blade's bevel perfectly flat, but if care is not taken on the rougher stones, the ones that excel at quickly wasting steel, the bevel will become very rounded, with the unavoidable consequence that you are destined to spend a lot of your time, effort, and sharpening stones making what should be a flat, polished surface into a round polished one instead, and that the time and effort and money that should have been expended sharpening the extreme cutting edge will have been wasted. Capiche? The bevel doesn't cut diddly, only the last few microns of the blade's edge, so don't let the bevel get in the way. Takes concentration, patience, and practice. Are you up to the job? Don't forget patience until you develop the muscle memory.

Once the bevel is flat (as far as possible using human hands) and the extreme cutting edge has been made ship shape and Bristol fashion by the rougher stones, you move the blade on to your finishing stone for polishing (vs wasting steel). This process can be accelerated by working the blade in longer strokes and polishing on both push and pull directions. The last few microns at the extreme cutting edge will become ever so slightly rounded if viewed microscopically, but that microscopic rounding will have been produced over a very narrow width because finishing stones don't have the ability to waste much metal. And most importantly, the metal at the extreme cutting edge will have been touched/polished only by your finishing stone. This takes the maximum advantage of your time, effort and expensive sharpening stones.

When I was taught this concept by an old man who had spent his entire adult life bent over sharpening stones, making exquisite cutting edges, I was a young man full of opinions and confidence, and it seemed passing strange. But I could not deny the results he produced using these techniques, not when I saw them with my own eyes and used the blades sharpened this way. And the speed was amazing.

I have explained these principles to a lot of people, but its almost always a waste of time. Damn, that sounds pompous! Give it a try anyway.

Stan

[Jeff Heath]

Chet:


I have explained these principles to a lot of people, but its almost always a waste of time. Damn, that sounds pompous! Give it a try anyway.

Stan

Stan,

I know how you feel. The term "until I'm blue in the face" comes to mind.

[Chet R Parks]

Stan,
Thank you for the detailed explanation. After I read your initial statement and before I asked the question I tried taking the short fast strokes and indeed I did feel more confident in not "rocking" the blade but as you explained the time/energy comes into play on the finer stones when less material is being removed. So now I'm thinking when I start honing with the final stone I will start out with the short strokes (just for a few seconds) to set in motion the muscle memory required to maintain the correct angle. This isn't just about the mundane back and forth movement of the blade on the stone. Your description clearly describes that there is or should be a concentrated mental effort between mind and body taking place of what is happening when one creates an fine edge and how and why to do it.... I get it Thanks Stan.
Chet