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Thread: Waterstones

  1. #31
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    Folks, until the OP checks back in and tells us what he's sharpening, the trade offs and recommendations are all speculation and personal preference. (Lots of good information about options, but none of it is specific to the original question except by chance.)

    I'm guessing this wasn't that pressing an issue or he would have been back to participate in the last two days.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Bassett View Post
    Folks, until the OP checks back in and tells us what he's sharpening, the trade offs and recommendations are all speculation and personal preference. (Lots of good information about options, but none of it is specific to the original question except by chance.)

    I'm guessing this wasn't that pressing an issue or he would have been back to participate in the last two days.
    Before you get carried away with sweeping generalizations on someone else's behalf, such as that none of the OP's questions have been addressed, you might want to read some of the postings. And just in case you hadn't noticed, 95% of everything posted on forums is opinion and personal preference... the rest is sweeping generalizations by those not paying attention.

  3. #33
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    [QUOTE=Jeff Heath;2779117]
    My 10 buck-apiece, 70 year old Greenlee chisels are every bit as sharp as any $100 plus chisel you can sharpen on those expensive stones, and I'll take the pepsi challenge on that any day of the week. I just want Ray, and all the other newer folks, to know that.
    [
    /QUOTE]

    Your Greenlees probably take a finer initial edge than a lot of the newer, more expensive chisels that we discuss in these threads. HCS is awfully hard to beat in that respect, particularly if you use traditional sharpening media. PM allows some of the less aggressive high-alloy-content steels to get into the same ballpark (PM-V11/CTS-XHP is a good example), but plain old HCS is still the gold standard IMO.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 02-17-2018 at 1:14 PM.

  4. #34
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    Patrick

    I've never had the pleasure of trying a PM-V11 chisel or plane iron. From all you guys say, it's quite impressive. One of these days, someone will bring it (hopefully) to a tool meet I'm at so I can give it a whirl.

    The HCS in the vintage tools is great. I have heard edges last longer in the PMV stuff. I honestly doubt it would matter to a guy like me. My sharpening station, which is a granite plate on a stand I built, is 4 steps from my bench. It takes me less than 2 minutes to re-establish a sharp edge before getting back to work. I really don't even notice it. Of course, I readily admit that you don't know what you're missing until you've tried it to begin with, so..

    I wish Lee Valley would make tapered double irons for wood planes out of it. I could be a potentially good customer, and I'm sure others would buy them, too. I bought a couple of their 6" tapered irons. They are just too short. My K&T mill and carbide tooling handles milling the slot with ease for a chipbreaker, but 6" is not a good size.

    I finished a table for a customer this morning, and now I'm needle scaling paint and rust off of a 1936 Yates American Y30 bandsaw I'm restoring for my shop, so break time is over....

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Jeff Heath; 02-17-2018 at 1:36 PM.
    Jeff

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Hepler View Post
    Sharpening discussions soon become an end in themselves. For many people, sharpening and arguing about sharpening methods, is lots more fun than woodworking.

    If you want to get some work done, use lapping film available from Lee Valley and/or consider one or more DMT diamond plates. Lapping film is a "Scary Sharp" or "sandpaper sharpening" method, but done with aluminum oxide or diamond coated film (Mylar?) because it lasts longer. Also, buy or borrow Ron Hock's book on sharpening. You can get a kindle edition and finish reading it today.
    Also Leonard Lee's book. IMO both he and Hock offer unique and worthwhile takes.

    w.r.t. lapping films, I have a couple thoughts:

    1. They're vulnerable to contamination and somewhat fragile. I don't know how many times I've had a random piece of abrasive from goodness-knows-what get embedded in the Mylar base. Likewise it's fairly easy to gouge the film if you're not paying attention and take a badly burred tool to them, though the latter can be overcome with practice and awareness.
    2. The diamond films are incredible. They offer the speed of diamond with extremely uniform particle size/height and scratch pattern. They leave a finer and more uniform scratch pattern than do plates at any given grit/speed. As a bonus you get to replace the cutting points about 10X more often than with plates (assuming constant consumable cost per sharpening), which means that you're always working with a "fresh plate".
    3. The AlOx films are very nice and convenient to use, but they really don't do anything that a well-maintained, high-quality Alumina waterstone won't. It's the same abrasive after all, and waterstones don't have "rogue particle" problems the way the metal plates can.

    Taking all of the above into consideration, my own solution is to use diamond films (and compounds, which are better still but have the added downside of loose grit contamination) in my home office for "heavy work", but stick to waterstones out in the shop where contamination and fragility are issues.

    You're absolutely right that the films (and the diamond ones in particular) are the lowest cost-of-entry option for "serious sharpening". I don't know of any other option that allows you to spend $25 and be able to work all the way from 15 um (1000# equivalent) to a 0.1 micron finish, even on exotic steels that are basically immune to every waterstone on the market (including Shapton Glass).

    Once you figure out how to avoid nicking and contamination the ongoing cost of the diamond films actually isn't that bad (lower than sandpaper in my experience). After all they don't really get dull. The only reason I don't use them out in my shop is because waterstones are cheaper still on an ongoing basis, and because I just don't want to deal with the hassle of keeping my films clean and nick-free in such a messy environment. If I had Brian's "shop hygiene" practices then that would be different, of course :-).
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 02-17-2018 at 1:51 PM.

  6. #36
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    Shop hygiene is definitely an issue, especially in a shop like mine that has woodworking and metalworking machines combined ( a poor mix, and being remedied soon with an additional space on property). However, it is easily remedied with a simple plywood cover over the top of the granite sub plate, with sides, to keep the contaminants out.
    Jeff

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Schultz View Post
    I don't know why people complain about sharpening threads. I love all the conflicting opinions! Makes for great reading. I guess maybe I'm just new to the game and I'll get tired of all this later. I doubt it though.
    If people were honest about it the reason these conversations often become heated is that everyone is talking to deaf people because those with many years of experience have arrived at a method that works for them and none of them want to change. There are comments above that I don't agree with but me putting in my 2c worth will never change the view of those who wrote them. Been there and done that and it is simply a waste of time. I am just as guilty, I have a method, it works for me and so be it.

    On the other had if these threads did not exist a lot of experience would not come out to help those just getting started.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Bassett View Post
    Folks, until the OP checks back in and tells us what he's sharpening, the trade offs and recommendations are all speculation and personal preference. (Lots of good information about options, but none of it is specific to the original question except by chance.)

    I'm guessing this wasn't that pressing an issue or he would have been back to participate in the last two days.
    Hi David,

    The OP, Ray is asking for recommendations about water stones. He has received a clear recommendation of the guy trying to sell him a $1200 set of stones is way out of line.

    There are also some in depth posts as to why folks like some stones and compare them to other stones in their shops. My Norton water stones are not really anything special, but they get my tools sharp. The 8000 does a decent job of polishing. There has been some explanation as to why some other stones of the same grit may not make a mirror polish.

    The abundance of differing information without animosity erupting is welcome in my book. Some people understand their opinions may be different without there being a conflict.

    A few recommendations for the set Stu at ToolsFromJapan.com sells:

    http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...d977b00e1fda0c

    That would be my choice if stones were being bought for my shop today. They seem to align with the original caveats stated by Ray.

    Another point to consider is how many people may have a similar question as Ray's and can find an answer in this thread.

    As far as not getting back to the conference, it is a 3-day weekend. Many people in these parts may also take a Friday and make it a 4-day ski weekend. Ray could be off the grid in a cabin with family or doing a long haul in an 18 wheeler for all we know. Then again, he may just be absorbing what has been written so far trying to make his choice.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  9. #39
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    Well said, Chris.

    I think that the state of play for many is that they are successful in achieving a sharp edge. That is a tangible result they can stand behind, and make declaritive statements about their system because the proof lies in front of them. This can be the result of experimentation, which leads one to want to now ignore the rejected systems. Hence the ongoing debates - there are many possible systems. Not everyone can be "right".

    For some, sharpening success is enough. For others - and I include myself here - I have reached a great system that works for me because it is quick. I get very little pleasure from sharpening and would rather discuss design or technique on a forum, but I am curious if there is something quicker still, so that sharpening can be done and dusted, and I can get back to working wood faster. Like a moth, I get sucked into these threads

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  10. #40
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    Perhaps $1200 is good value, we don't know what was being bought for that figure because no one asked. I bet there are contributers in this thread who have spent many thousands of dollars, way more than 1200 to get the the method they use now. If the OP was willing to spend that much he may get to the final answer cheaper than any here giving advice. I wish it had cost me only 1200 to get where I am happy with the results I get. Looking at it that way all of a sudden 1200 might not be such a bad deal.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  11. #41
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    {edited}
    those with many years of experience have arrived at a method that works for them and none of them want to change. There are comments above that I don't agree with but me putting in my 2c worth will never change the view of those who wrote them. Been there and done that and it is simply a waste of time. I am just as guilty, I have a method, it works for me and so be it.
    Those with years of experience often pay attention to what others offer in hopes of gleaning small bits of information to help in their own methods. Sometimes even the unknowing can present wisdom.

    Hopefully everyone can find a system that works for their needs. Meeting one's own needs is all that really matters.

    My success with oilstones didn't come about until after learning to sharpen with water stones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    Perhaps $1200 is good value, we don't know what was being bought for that figure because no one asked. I bet there are contributers in this thread who have spent many thousands of dollars, way more than 1200 to get the the method they use now. If the OP was willing to spend that much he may get to the final answer cheaper than any here giving advice. I wish it had cost me only 1200 to get where I am happy with the results I get. Looking at it that way all of a sudden 1200 might not be such a bad deal.
    A quick search turned up a 3 stone set of Shapton Glass stones and a flattening plate at about $700. Not sure what could pad that out another $500.

    Many have mentioned the Shapton Glass stones are not economically a great investment for sharpening.

    My most expensive part of my sharpening set up was the powered system. Add that with all of the stones purchased it likely still short of the $1000 mark. Some of my stones were purchased second hand. Some of them were purchased new 50 years ago. Some were purchased new in the last two decades. Getting a good set of stones to start out isn't a $1200 proposition. Even with all my slip stones it isn't getting there.

    In an earlier post Jeff Heath mentions Scary Sharp and not even getting close to spending $300 over some years.

    With some careful shopping one could buy oilstones, water stones, a few diamond stones and abrasive sheets and try four of the main sharpening systems and still have money left from the $1200 price tag mentioned in the original post.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 02-18-2018 at 2:22 AM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  12. #42
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    I reckon most people would exceed $1200 learning sharpening, I have and anyone who has a Tormek would have. Now all those who haven't will tell me I am wrong of course and few who have will admit it.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Those with years of experience often pay attention to what others offer in hopes of gleaning small bits of information to help in their own methods. Sometimes even the unknowing can present wisdom.

    Hopefully everyone can find a system that works for their needs. Meeting one's own needs is all that really matters.

    My success with oilstones didn't come about until after learning to sharpen with water stones.



    A quick search turned up a 3 stone set of Shapton Glass stones and a flattening plate at about $700. Not sure what could pad that out another $500.

    Many have mentioned the Shapton Glass stones are not economically a great investment for sharpening.

    My most expensive part of my sharpening set up was the powered system. Add that with all of the stones purchased it likely still short of the $1000 mark. Some of my stones were purchased second hand. Some of them were purchased new 50 years ago. Some were purchased new in the last two decades. Getting a good set of stones to start out isn't a $1200 proposition. Even with all my slip stones it isn't getting there.

    In an earlier post Jeff Heath mentions Scary Sharp and not even getting close to spending $300 over some years.

    With some careful shopping one could buy oilstones, water stones, a few diamond stones and abrasive sheets and try four of the main sharpening systems and still have money left from the $1200 price tag mentioned in the original post.

    jtk
    Jim,

    Full disclosure, I own and use Shapton's and Shapton accessories. While all are expensive, the accessories work well with the stones. On to the highlighted quote. I expect the salesman went for the whole Shapton kit, Stone Pond and holders along with the stones and lapping plate. The Stone Pond is priced at $230 USD add in a couple or three Shapton Stone Holders at $120 USD a copy and you are at the $1200 USD mark. Is the kit worth it, kinda depends on how much you like your money.

    Over the years I've tried many sharpening stones, natural and man made, of the man made stones, Shapton's and its accessories work for me. Are there "better" stones? It kinda depends on what blows your skirt. BTW, for those appalled or questioning the cost/benefit ratio of Shampton's going down the JNAT road will blow your mind.

    Like many others I'm drawn to sharpening post like moths to flame, great fun to read but classic everyone talking and nobody listening.

    ken

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    I reckon most people would exceed $1200 learning sharpening, I have and anyone who has a Tormek would have. Now all those who haven't will tell me I am wrong of course and few who have will admit it.
    You can spend as much or as little as you want doing this. I started with sandpaper. When I ran out of sandpaper, I decided I did not want to be constantly running out for sandpaper. I bought a 1000/8000 norton combination stone. Amazon has them for less than $100. I used that for a long time, but now use oilstones (an India and a black Arkansas). They also cost less than $100. I just got tired of the water and the mess.

  15. #45
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    The need to hollow grind plane blades would be my main sharpening gripe. It just takes too long otherwise with the thick wide blades, modern steel or not. Old plane blades are easy.
    Once hollow ground a 1000x water stone, then 6000x water stone & a strop with honing compound produce a polished sharp edge.
    I don't believe more is needed as after a few strokes of the plane any 'super' edge is simply lost.
    You can restore 'most' of the edge with just the strop as you work before you have to go back to the stones. This does demonstrate that the sweet cutting zone is way up there somewhere. The strop restored edge is shorter lived than the original edge suggesting it did not restore all the edge but it gives you a sense of your sharpening technique.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

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