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Thread: Waterstones

  1. #1
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    Waterstones

    Colleagues: need some recommendations as to a water stone set. Am tired of the Tormek required pre soaking time before use. As a result, I put off sharpening or touching up the edge until it is really dull.

    Last time I was at the local tool emporium, clerk raved about the Shapton glass backed stones. It all sounded almost believable until he quoted me an out the door price for the all grits that I really needed to sharpen well as well as the necessary Shapton diamond lapping plate. The out-the-door price, tax included, was just shy of US $1200.00. Aint no way I am spending that 'kinda' money if there are alternatives.

    A friend raves 'bout the Naniwa Sharpening Stone -- New Super Stone? But I 'duunno.'

    Need some recommendation as to grits and brand. Thanks for any help.

  2. #2
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    Get the three stone set from Tools from Japan. It's probably a little over a couple of hundred bucks now. You'll have to wait a little while for it to get here, but prices can't be beaten, if that matters.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    Get the three stone set from Tools from Japan. It's probably a little over a couple of hundred bucks now. You'll have to wait a little while for it to get here, but prices can't be beaten, if that matters.
    That'd be the Sigma Power Ceramic Set Stu offered. (I don't see it on his site right now.) You could order ala carte, his legendary set was Sigma Power Ceramic Water Stones #1000 Hard, #6000, #13000, and a Atoma #400 diamond stone (for flattening). He also has many other stones to choose from.

    You should search head to the Neanderthal sub-forum and do a search. Some stones don't work well with some steels, plus there is a huge amount of personal preference involved. (Honestly the discussions can get a little religious and heated, but there's a lot of good info buried in the, ah, vigorous debate.)

    ETA: you don't say what you are sharpening. E.g. HCS will leave you more options than you would with A2. (If you're talking M4, M42, or CPM-10V, options narrow more.) Plus, if you're sharpening turning tools I should have suggested searching the Turning sub-forum for a whole different set of options.
    Last edited by David Bassett; 02-16-2018 at 2:34 AM. Reason: Another thought

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Newman View Post
    Colleagues: need some recommendations as to a water stone set. Am tired of the Tormek required pre soaking time before use. As a result, I put off sharpening or touching up the edge until it is really dull.

    Last time I was at the local tool emporium, clerk raved about the Shapton glass backed stones. It all sounded almost believable until he quoted me an out the door price for the all grits that I really needed to sharpen well as well as the necessary Shapton diamond lapping plate. The out-the-door price, tax included, was just shy of US $1200.00. Aint no way I am spending that 'kinda' money if there are alternatives.

    A friend raves 'bout the Naniwa Sharpening Stone -- New Super Stone? But I 'duunno.'

    Need some recommendation as to grits and brand. Thanks for any help.
    Hi Ray

    First of all, the glass Shaptons are a different breed of waterstone, and I would steer clear of them. They have a very hard binder and are aimed at cutting rather than polishing steel. For glass stones to polish, you need more stones in the end. Too much work.

    Secondly, for efficiency, you need to grind your blades. I'm assuming that you are referring to hand plane and bench chisels. Modern blades are thick and hard, and removing some of the steel via a hollow grind speeds up sharpening. If you are willing to spend a little - and this will be a one off - get a 6" or 8" bench grinder (hard speed is better but full speed is OK) and add a 180 grit CBN wheel. These grind cool (almost as cool as the Tormek) and never wear - so settings do not change, and no pre-soaking is needed.

    Finally, there are many alternatives with waterstones. My set up includes the Shapton Pro 1000, and Sigma 6000 and 13000.

    EDIT TO ADD: The Ultimate Grinding-Sharpening Set Up

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 02-16-2018 at 8:41 AM.

  5. #5
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    Do you own a bench grinder? Buy a 6” or find one at a pawn shop/flea market. Unless you just love standing over stones and progressing up grits.

    Build a tool rest for it or buy the wolverine setup. Buy an edgemaking wheel and some red rouge buffing compound. Hollow grind your primary bevel, then worksharp buff the secondary. I can have mirrored stupid sharp edge in a fraction of the time.

    I bought a cheap set of stones on eBay for $45. 400/1000 and 3000/8000 along with a flattening stone. Took me 20 minutes to get razor edge on new chisel (flattening the back included.) I took another new chisel and had it making bald spots on my arm in 3 minutes using the 120grit wheel and edgemaking wheel.

    If you MUST use stones for whatever your reason. All you need is 1000/8000 and a leather strop with compound. Stop letting your edges get so dull and lap them on the strop after each use (or during if you have a lot of planing to do) and they’ll maintain an edge.

    I’ve read Lee’s book on sharpening. I’ve watched countless videos. I’ve owned the edgemaking for three 3 years and you can not remotely get close to its efficacy. I want to be stooped over a piece of wood, not a stone.

    edit: I have no affiliation with Edgemaking system other than being a satisfied customer.
    Last edited by Justin Ludwig; 02-16-2018 at 10:19 AM. Reason: updated worksharp to edgemaking with link
    -Lud

  6. #6
    I have shapton 1000, 5000, and 8000. That and a diamond flattening plate cost me about $300.

  7. #7
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    Ray
    I have a set of waterstones. Don't remember the makers, but they work great.
    I have a 220 to remove gross material. Then they range from 400-8000 grit. They are always in a tub of water, and have been for over 10 years. They're always ready to go.
    Two tips to avoid hunching over the like Justin stated. Do it right the first time and touch them up as you go. That way you avoid be hunched over water stones.
    It doesn't take much to keep them sharp.
    $1200 to sharpen chisels and plane irons is a bit excessive for me.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  8. #8
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    I have a set of Ohishi stones (1000, 6000, 10000) from Lie Nielsen that I like - they've held up well for a few years and don't need soaking.Got an Atoma diamond plate from Amazon for flattening them and use the low speed Rikon grinder for hollow grinds. From a quick Google search, the stones are currently total about $225, you can always find the grinder someplace for around $100 and the plate is $80

  9. #9
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    Ray,
    You could get a 10 inch CBN wheel for your Tormek, Spartan - Affordable CBN Wheels no water, no waiting for less than $200. I just bought 2 wheels and don't regret it.
    Chet

  10. #10
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    I remembered incorrectly. I outfitted my 6" bench grinder with the Edgemaking system from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Razor-Sharp-E.../dp/B0002IXQD8

    I put the edge this produces up against any edge you could produce by water or oil stones.
    -Lud

  11. #11
    The Tormek is great for grinding, but I'm not sure why you would use the Tormek for every sharpening, it seems like a lot of time and a waste of steel.

    I only use my Tormek to set the bevels on the blades, which it is good at and doesn't need to be done often. The secondary bevel and in between sharpenings/honings are done on waterstones, and those take about 30 seconds. You only need to hit the small secondary bevel, not the whole edge.

    If you already have the Tormek, it would seem to make sense to keep using that to grind the primary bevels, rather than investing more money and even more time in low grit waterstones, and just get some higher grit waterstones for touch up. It going to take a lot longer to do a primary bevel on a waterstone than dump some water in the Tormek and grind, and then top off the water mid grind as needed.

  12. #12
    I bought a set of shapton pro waterstones (1000, 5000, 8000) and an Atoma #400 diamond plate from Tools From Japan for less than $300. Add an inexpensive leather strop with some compound and you are all set. I spent a couple bucks on a large ceramic tile from a big box store and glued some sander belt pieces to it for those rare times when I need to lap a plane or remove metal quickly. I cannot imagine spending $1200 on waterstones.

  13. #13
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    I didn't read every reply, because it's a sharpening thread, and they always stray far off the original question, so I am sorry if this has already been said, but here's my reply to your question:

    The Shapton Glass stones are excellent stones, but you don't need that full set, especially at that price. The diamond plate is nearly $400 by itself. I have one (super deal for a used one on eBay- I would never pay $400 for a lapping plate) and it is by far the best diamond plate I have ever used, but you can get a DMT and do a fine job for 1/3 or less the price.

    Get the Shapton Glass 1k, 4k, and 8k to start. Fill in the gaps as needed. Get a DMT dia-sharp lapping plate. You're good to go.

    By the way, the Tormek stones are thirsty, but I have always just filled it up with the wheel turning and started sharpening, and as it soaked up more water I added a bit more for the first few minutes and then it stops soaking.

  14. #14
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    This is the set that I have, and I’ve been very happy with them so far. I don’t pre-soak any of the stones (even the 1k), just keep a spray bottle with water close by and keep them wet as you sharpen. A cheap 8k nagura stone to raise slurry on the 8k and 12k stones improved their performance drastically. From what I understand these are the same stones as the Shapton Pro series, just the Japanese equivalent. They are a bit cheaper.
    My experience is limited however, as I have never used any other brand of stones. I can say that I get a scalpel-sharp polished edge off of the 12k stone with no need for a strop.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FYEYKE8..._QIXHAbTJ5T89Y
    ---Trudging the Road of Happy Destiny---

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian zawatsky View Post
    This is the set that I have, and I’ve been very happy with them so far. I don’t pre-soak any of the stones (even the 1k), just keep a spray bottle with water close by and keep them wet as you sharpen. A cheap 8k nagura stone to raise slurry on the 8k and 12k stones improved their performance drastically. From what I understand these are the same stones as the Shapton Pro series, just the Japanese equivalent. They are a bit cheaper.
    My experience is limited however, as I have never used any other brand of stones. I can say that I get a scalpel-sharp polished edge off of the 12k stone with no need for a strop.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FYEYKE8..._QIXHAbTJ5T89Y
    Christopher Schwarz likes those and wrote about the change in importer in his PopWood Blog. (It does look like they're only 15mm thick, so remember that when comparing prices. Many stones are 25mm thick and give you a little more abrasive.)

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