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Thread: Thinking outside the box on dust collection

  1. #1
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    Thinking outside the box on dust collection

    So, in a previous thread, I mentioned that I'm setting up a new 40 x 80 foot shop, for wood working, with my current machinery:
    15" wide belt sander
    15" Woodmaster planer
    10" table saw
    A couple of chop saws
    Radial arm
    Small 6" jointer

    I have to figure out dust collection.
    Since there are no internal walls, and plenty of room, I have no limitations.
    Currently, we've been using a couple of single bag top portable dust collection, and it's an unhealthy and poor way to work.
    I've been looking the Clear Vue systems, as well as Oneida and Grizzly.
    And, then there's the dust collection piping....everything from PVC and metal, up to Nordfab solutions.
    My sister will be the primary wood worker, in the shop 100% of the time.
    A 2nd helper 60% of the time.
    And a 3rd guy rarely.

    As I was looking at the Clear Vue Max, that'll set me back about $2200.
    Oneida, about $3200
    Piping, from $1500 to $3K.

    All in, around $4K to $5500. Does that seem about right?
    Nordfab is the most error forgiving, when it comes to the ease of re-routing piping.....because I'm bound to want to change things, after my initial setup.

    One other thing to realize, is I've got so much room in the new shop, that I'll be grouping the machines together, so I'm not humping lumber a long way from machine to machine, yet I don't want them on top of each other, such that it's cumbersome to swing a board around. All this extra room, is a luxury I'm looking forward to.

    Then, my sister had this idea.
    She said, why don't we just do these: Grizzly G0583Z - 1HP
    Afterall, she said, we have plenty of room, and we don't have a 5hp cyclone running constantly, eating huge amounts of energy.
    She's suggesting we simply buy 1 of those for the Sander, the planer, and the table saw. The others could share one.
    3 total, all in, about $1600 - $2K

    Pros:
    Setup couldn't be easier.
    Changing the setup couldn't be easier.
    Lower Cost.
    Very little duct work.
    Big energy savings. Only using 1HP per machine, and only when you need it.
    Built in redundancy. One dies, you could tap into another.
    They all run on 110v. No additional wiring required.

    Cons:
    Filters down to 1 micron. Cyclones go lower than that.
    Messy bags, rather than a drum on wheels.

    Even tho this model produces more CFM than needed for sander (the machine creating the most dust), I could spend a few more dollars, and upgrade that one machine to the G0548ZP, which is almost overkill for 1 machine....plus I then have a 2HP motor running, doubling the power consumption of the G0583Z unit.

    I don't know what to think....
    Since room is not a limitation, this seems like a possible way to go....tho, I've never heard of anyone doing this.
    Seems like they always upgrade to a cyclone.

    Hell, if I really wanted to get under 1 micron, I could go with 3 of these: G0703 and still be well under the Clear Vue or Oneida.
    3 mini cyclones, on wheels, for ease of layout change, drums on wheels, and low energy consumption.

    What am I missing?
    Last edited by dirk martin; 02-17-2018 at 9:53 PM.

  2. #2
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    I've seen production shops done with localized dust collection like you're thinking. I think it can make good sense.

  3. I think there are a few flaws with this type of setup.

    1. A 1hp dusty is not going to provide nearly enough airflow for proper dust collection on a tablesaw, bandsaw, drum sander, thicknesser, or any large machine. My 2hp with 1m of flex and clean pleated filters only measured 350cfm real flow (although this was at 50hz so you might get around 400).

    2. The filters are poor. Are the 1 micron filters to a Merv or Hepa rating or established, traceable standard. If not, you really don't know what they are filtering. Also a lot of harmful dust is sub 1 micron. If you put a seperator on a 1hp unit you will strangle airflow further.

    Also, don't forget that hp ratings do not determine power consumption, the amount of airflow and impeller size/fan ppwer curve does. If you want around 1000cfm with reasonable ductwork/static pressure you will need to produce around 4-5hp regardless if the motor is rated for 1,2,3 or 10hp. If you choke the system with restrictions even a 10hp motor may only draw 3 or 4 hp.

    Cheers, Dom
    Last edited by Dominik Dudkiewicz; 02-18-2018 at 5:02 AM.

  4. #4
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    They upgrade to a cyclone because they get tired of cleaning filters every 20 minutes or sooner depending on the operation and get tired of the inherent inefficiency of a low end dust collector with a 4" hose. With a cyclone you should only get clogged filters when you forget to empty the bin in time. Properly setup you are getting cleaner air which was your reasoning in the first place.

  5. #5
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    As mentioned, you add a filter to get good filtration but, without a separator like a cyclone, you have to clean the filters way too often IMHO. The start up surge of a lot of small machines may not be better on power consumption that starting a single large machine. You would have to do the math on that and not just go with a "Hey, what if we . . . ?" sort of a decision.

    With a space that large in that part of the country I would be more concerned about heat retention in the colder months. IMHO the best way to save money on dust collection is to avoid returning your air to the works pace. This lets you skip the filter and blow your spoil out of the building. This is not practical in many cases but, I would examine the option carefully.

    My dad separates in the closet and exhausts outside and he is in a suburban neighborhood. I would do it in a heartbeat but, my required exit point combined with the prevailing winds and my neighbors pool, spa and fountains would make me a very bad neighbor.

    Additionally, with all the space you have, not building a closet for the DC to suppress noise would be silly. Percolate a while. I will be interested in which way you go.
    Last edited by glenn bradley; 02-18-2018 at 11:24 AM.
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  6. #6
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    I don't have a wide belt sander, but I do have a 12" jointer/planer, table saw/shaper, a couple of small sanders, and a CNC machine. I run four 1 HP dust collectors that aren't nearly the quality of the one you're looking at and have no problems. These machines, and even your wide belt sander, simply aren't capable of generating more dust by themselves than any decent 1 HP collector can suck up through a short run of hose. Of course a 1 HP collector won't be enough with the restrictions of a duct system, but that's not what you're talking about. With only one full time worker and a couple of part time you also don't have to worry about any power surge of starting up a lot of small machines. You're going to start up a collector and a woodworking machine and run it until you're through and then shut it down and start up another pair and run them for a while. With a one man shop there's plenty of time when you aren't running any machines like layout, glue-ups, hand sanding, etc.

    If you're really worried about sub 1 micron everybody just needs to wear a respirator. Even if you have a collection system that filters less than 1 micron it's only filtering the air that goes through it. What about the dust that doesn't get collected at the machine, in spite of the designer's best efforts and your meticulous connection and ducting? Dust escapes, regardless. As soon as you hand sand something there is dust in the air, and that dust is going to settle and get stirred up when you walk around. Which brings up ambient air filters, which I think are worth the cost as they certainly help.

    The biggest drawback I see is emptying the bags. I work by myself and generally set a pretty good pace and the only bag I fill up more than once a week is the table saw, and not even that depending on the type of work. I do run trash can separators on the jointer/planer so I am emptying shavings a good bit when I'm using them. I'd think you'd want to do that regardless of which way you go or you're going to end up filling up your collector pretty quickly. With the separators the shavings have very little dust as it gets sucked through so its not a big deal to empty them in the shop. I see you're in the land of perpetual winter, but I usually roll my collectors outside to empty them to keep from spilling dust in the shop. That may not be an option where you are for a good part of the year.

    A note on power consumption. Yesterday I worked about 6 hours and face jointed and thicknessed 24 rough sawn 1x6x68" to 3/4" and then ripped both edges on the slider, glued them up in 4 panels, cut the ends of the panels to length on the panel saw, grooved the glue joints on the CNC (about 32 minutes run time), and ran around the perimeter with a router to ease the sharp edges. The jointer/planer, slider, and CNC all had a 1 HP collector running when they were. The panel saw uses a shop vac. An ambient air filter and about a dozen old school (inefficient by today's standards) fluorescent lights were running the whole time. I have two pancake compressors that ran intermittently to blow the stray chips off the jointer/planer and CNC and a shop vac I used to clean up now and then. My power bill for yesterday was about $5.00 (I can check it online). My shop is in my basement so that includes the refrigerator, freezer, stove for cooking dinner, lights, TV last night, 2 or 3 computers and a router all day, etc. I really don't think you need to worry about any huge power surge from starting up 1 HP dust collectors.
    Last edited by Ted Derryberry; 02-18-2018 at 2:18 PM.

  7. #7
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    It just occurred to me that you can try small collectors pretty cheap and if it doesn't work out build a larger system later. The small collectors should be relatively easy to sell. Of course you'll lose a little money on them, but nothing like you would if you built a big system and decided it wasn't worth the initial cost and ongoing power costs. You'll certainly lose money trying to sell a duct system, or worst case having it in the shop unused.

    Even if I had a large ducted system I'd keep at least one portable collector in the shop as a back up. I run a tight schedule and when something goes down I need to be able to keep working and fix equipment later (night or weekend usually). Of course it's not always feasible to have a back up table saw or wide belt sander on hand. However it is feasible to have a small dust collector that can be hooked up to one machine quickly if the big collector quits for whatever reason and at least finish out the day. So, even if you put in a big system later you'll already have your back up and only have two to sell, not three.

  8. #8
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    Sorry, I just thought of another advantage. No running around looking for the open blast gate. Of course you could get one of the fancy automatic systems, but that's even more money. When I got my slider I kept finding myself walking around the table to get to the dust collector switch so I bought a ~$45 remote from Grizzly and hung the switch from the ceiling right over where I stand most of the time. You could also mount it right next to the machine switch, but my saw has two switch locations so that doesn't work well for it.

    As for noise, the small dust collectors are quieter than most things in the shop, like wet/dry vacs, routers, saws, etc. You're going to be wearing hearing protection for the equipment anyway so the low hum of a small dust collector added to the mix isn't a big deal.

  9. If you just want to collect the bulk visible dust/chips then this setup may work ok but don't expect it to provide a low dust enivornment from a health perspective. Not enough flow to capture dust at the source and inadequate filtration.

    If you go down this route also wear a p3 respirator, don't bring workshop clothes into the house and shower after woodworking.

    Have a good read through Bill Pentz's website / work as a starting point.

    Cheers, Dom

  10. #10
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    Anybody that thinks a big system with low micron filtration is creating a low dust environment from a health perspective in a shop where any hand sanding, hand drilling, or other common woodworking activities are carried out is fooling themselves. If you really want to breath clean air then consider the dust collection system, whatever it is, to be one part of the solution. Ambient air filters and respirators would be the other two critical parts. Of course you don't go stomping around the house in dusty clothes, which you will be wearing after woodworking, unless you do nothing but stand at an industrial machine and push buttons all day. That doesn't happen in a one or two person shop. Just moving lumber and sheet goods around stirs up dust as they aren't exactly clean when you buy them.

    Is Bill Pentz the guy that's deathly allergic to wood dust and claims you'll die within a week if you don't have a "proper" (by his definition) dust collection system?

  11. #11
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    I suggest reading this page https://woodgears.ca/dust/dylos.html , especially at the bottom after the last picture, and then this page https://woodgears.ca/dust_collector/thien.html

    Now draw your own conclusions on where the point of diminishing returns is on dust collection systems. If I were really worried I'd wear a quality respirator any time I was in the shop and until I removed my dusty clothes and had them in the washing machine. I'm not.

  12. Completely agree with you that simply having a 5hp cyclone or similar is not a full solution. You often need to modify machine dust ports, add overhead ports/collection, wear a respirator at times and modify processes.

    I run a 5hp cyclone in my small shop, have modified my machines, and run a moveable extraction box on my bench for hand sanding and hand tool use. I have measured dust levels using a professional grade meter and there is typically less dust than in the general outdoor environment in my shop.

    I'm not saying a large cyclone is the complete answer but it is certainly an important part. Without one you are certainly making it far more difficult to control dust.

    If a 1 hp is working for you then great. Some people, eg. Sam Maloof seem to be fine with hardly any dust collection for many years, others not so much. It comes down to individual physiology/suseptibility, exposure, and a bit of chance. Some like to roll the dice.

    A 2hp dusty did nearly nothing for me and I was developing sensitivity to wood dust. The 5hp cyclone and working on machine ports / collection at source solved all of my symptoms and lets me sleep at night (figuratively and literally).

    Cheers, Dom

  13. #13
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    So regardless of whether you have small local collectors or a large cyclone system it still boils down to modifying machines, ambient air filters, respirators, etc. to get "clean" air.

    Sounds to me like the only two factors to consider are cost (initial and power consumption) vs. time spent cleaning out filters and bags. You still have to clean out the cyclone eventually also.

    Just the savings in the initial investment in the original poster's scenario could likely buy a piece of equipment that improved efficiency enough to more than make up for dumping bags once a week.

    To me the time spent cleaning out bags for a low volume one or two person shop vs. the expense of a large system is a no brainer. If it were a large shop with lots of machines running constantly it would be a very different story.

  14. #14
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    No 1hp "dust extractor" is going to keep up with a wide belt sander, it simply won't happen and that is before you factor in the other machines. I have never tried to persuade anyone to buy a CV cyclone but I ask them how much is their health worth? I must have heard stories from at least 50 people who had to give up woodworking and find another job or hobby due to dust issues but then others deny it is a factor like some above. Everyone who puts the time and money in to install a good ducted system always comments on how clean the workshop is and how much nicer it is to work in.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  15. #15
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    If you'd bothered to read the post you'd know that the other machines aren't a factor. Since you didn't bother to read it, what qualifies you to comment on it?

    You're doing nothing but setting up straw men to knock them down again. Just because some people are happy with a "good ducted system" doesn't mean others can't get satisfactory results with another system.

    Anecdotal stories about people that gave up woodworking prove nothing either. Thousands of woodworkers have no problems from dust with marginal collection systems. Prove that's true or not, it means as little as your anecdote.
    Last edited by Ted Derryberry; 02-18-2018 at 10:11 PM.

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