How I make doors.

[David Kumm]

Martin, I'm talking about flaws in the face veneer. Ply veneer always seems to take a finish just a little differently than thicker veneer so because I'm making for myself, I either cover up ply with a door panel or add my own veneer to exposed sides and panels. Most of my stuff is raised as that is what I like. I'm trapped in the 1990s styles but it will return someday.

Can you run veneer through your WB or just solid wood? I run SIA paper backed belts in 150 and 180 on my small 25" WB - single, and heavier in the double but use the double so seldom I gain no experience with it. When doing doors I set up three shapers and leave them so when I find I screwed something up a week ( year ) or two later, I can duplicate. Makes no economic sense but hobbys generally don't. I really appreciate you commercial guys sharing. Dave

PS, sounds like you need a Kindt Collins Master Sander. 24" is good but 30-36" is even better. The larger ones can go cheaper as few can handle them.

[J.R. Rutter]

J.R., do you back cut right through the veneer to fit the groove? Doesn't it show?
This is interesting...yesterday we were making veneered panels and we ran the panel MDF through the wide belt to bring them to the right thickness before gluing the veneers on and I was trying to think of a better way. It would be more accurate using your method since you already know the thickness of the veneered panel.

Depends on the sheet, but I use a radius back cutter with the fence set so that the radius left snugs up against the edge of the groove in the door. So even if it cuts down into the MDF core, there is veneer right up to the wood frame. If the panels are nice and flat, I could use the trimmed side for the face, but typically a couple of corners will get hit a little heavy, which might show up if seen from the right angle, so the trimmed face goes to the back of the door.

[Jim Becker]

I don't know what this means....

I think he's suggesting that there are "alternative workforce opportunities" for many people who are willing to work but have some personal things that require some understanding, especially initially. Yes, sometimes it takes a bit more patience during the training process, but the end result can be some really good workers.

[Ted Derryberry]

As far as throwing away material. I don't know how much time it would add, but if I buy 500 bd/ft of premium soft maple at $2.30 per bd/ft, surfacing I think costs me $0.15 per bd/ft, or $75. A total of $2.45 per bd/ft, or $1225 for the bunk.

Say I throw away 10% because of crook, bow, or twist, which to be honest is likely a high number, but in the realm of reality. Like I said, doors are picky, nothing else really is on the straightness of material. Face frames are the sum of their parts and usually straighten crooked material out in their own, bowed material the box will straighten out. With doors, you use up the best material first for the longest parts and work your way through the pile.

I pretty confident I can not rough cut, face joint, plane, then size length, edge joint, re-rip, final size width and deal with the swarf and sharpening on the dimensioning of 500 bd/ft of lumber for $125. There's no guarantee it'll be flat/straight tomorrow either. Better odds though, yes. Wood is feisty like that sometimes. I'm curious what the electrical cost would be too. I'm sure it's not huge, but it'd be in there. Dust collection is my biggest hog of electricity.

I haven't worked at that many cabinet shops. I only worked in two before going on my own, and I have helped out a few others temporarily when things were slow for me just starting out. Nobody I worked for regularly surfaced their own material. But that's strictly cabinet shops. I never did fine furniture, or pianos are anything really outside of regular residential cabinets. My view on woodworking is rather finite and limited to cabinetry.

When you're really pumping product out the door, waste is inevitable and must be controlled, but it also needs to be weighed and measured against what is profitable.


Most of the wood tops I make are solid material. I'll usually get that material skip planed and face joint it, just to make the glue up easier and save some passes through the widebelt. Tough to fight twisted up 8/4 white oak wood top into submission, unlike a 3/4" thick face frame with not much width to the parts.

Its been a while since I got prices, but it wasn't just surfacing, it was finish milling and pretty much doubled the cost of the material. My concern is that I buy it today and then by the time it's delivered (another cost due to their location vs. the rough lumber supplier that I pick up from) and then sits in my shop until I use it there's lots of opportunity for things to go bad. This is yellow pine in Georgia where humidity is a real issue.

The rough sawn I buy is already "rough cut". I can buy 4/4x 4 through 12, 5/4x 6 through 12 and 8/4x 6 through 12 in lengths from 8' to 16', all depending on what's in stock at the time. I typically buy 4/4x6x12 and 14, 5/4x10x8 or 16, and 8/4x12x12 or 14 and those sizes make all the parts for the doors. There's little waste of material ripped off the edge of the boards, it's mostly sawdust and shavings. In fact, I usually get a weeks worth of production waste and our household garbage in the 90 gallon trash can that I roll out to the street. That's not counting sawdust and shavings, that goes to the seed and feed store I mentioned earlier.

Kind of got off track there, but basically this is my process:
1. Rough cut to length when I unload the material. I do this outside with a miter saw on a stand just to keep the mess down and its easier to bring the material inside in shorter lengths. I blow the sawdust into the yard with a leaf blower.
2. Face joint and plane to thickness.
3. Straight line rip and re-rip on the slider, no edge jointing required.
4. Trim to final length as necessary. This varies. For the panels of course I glue them up and then cut to length on the vertical panel saw. For the rails and stiles I mill the grooves, then cut to the length, then mill the stub tenons on the rails.

The new slider eliminating the edge jointing, ripping, and sizing to width on the planer has really sped up production. I can take 36 rough sawn 1x6 6' long and by quitting time have 6 - 28.5" x 66.5" panels glued up and groove the glue lines on the CNC (simulated tongue and groove). I'm only gluing one panel at a time due to space issues too. However, I use that time for final sizing and grooving the previous panel, as well as getting prepped for the next stages of the process.

I agree there's no guarantee it will be flat and straight tomorrow. By milling it myself I can get it glued up that day, or the next at worst. That's the big advantage to me. Also, since it's all doors I don't have a lot of opportunity to use up less than ideal material on something else. My electric costs are pretty low. My shop is in my basement and our electric bill seldom gets over $8.00 per day. Maybe half of that is the shop, and that's only on days when I'm really working the equipment. It drops to nearly nothing when I'm doing glue ups and just sanding.

My whole business model is based on close to zero fixed costs (overhead). If I don't work one day, I don't have any costs that day. I'll never get rich, but this is a second career for me and I have no desire to build a business with lots of employees. I just want to provide for my family and get comfortable enough that I can work less and be picky about the work I take when I'm older.

[Larry Edgerton]

A
Dust collection is my biggest hog of electricity.

At my old shop I had a large collector, and it always bugged me to have a 25hp blower running so I could run a 5 hp machine. I often wondered if running two or three smaller units would not be better. Like you I was running the shop with myself and one full time employee, and the 4-500 dollar electric bill was a lot of money not in my pocket. Problem is the big units are cheap used, so that is what you go with.

Enjoying the discussion, always good to learn how other people approach the same problems.

[Martin Wasner]

At my old shop I had a large collector, and it always bugged me to have a 25hp blower running so I could run a 5 hp machine. I often wondered if running two or three smaller units would not be better. Like you I was running the shop with myself and one full time employee, and the 4-500 dollar electric bill was a lot of money not in my pocket. Problem is the big units are cheap used, so that is what you go with.

Enjoying the discussion, always good to learn how other people approach the same problems.

I agree, it's silly having all those horsepowers running when it's just one idiot making a mess. I've wondered at what point does it not matter and you just leave it running all day though because it's always in use by at least one person? My electric bill is about $500 a month for the shop, and another $1200 for the heat.... I should've slammed a propane boiler in but I was in a bad mood about propane after getting royally screwed on the price a year or two prior to building. A train fell off the tracks while a pipeline was shut down for maintenance and we were stuck paying almost $5 a gallon. Plus they were rationing. I'm getting a propane boiler in before next winter, I'm just pissing away too much money there.

I had three collectors in the old shop. I am going to add a small cyclone inside to service just the benches in the new shop. I just wanted it centralized with one disposal spot and I wanted to be filtering a lot of air. But that comes with the cost. Some of the stuff just needs a butt load of air too. Like the widebelt and the moulder. I ain't emptying bags on that moulder. That would be murder. And you're right, the medium sized collectors can be had pretty cheap. I think I paid $5k for my baghouse.

A while back you posted something about making a mess doing a climb cut. My initial thought was, "move more air". I didn't say it, because you've got what you've got. But, The shaper I've got doing my panel raising has a 10" drop to it. Holy crap does that thing suck up the chips. Hardly anything escapes. In fact sometimes something get's pitched out, and then it goes right back in. You'd lose your hat if you aren't careful.



I really wish I had the time for messing around with metal fab stuff. I've got two ideas for a baghouse I'd like to build. I'm pretty sure the first one is too complicated and won't work or be constantly plagued with filter problems, but I think the second would be just fine. I'd put a cyclone outside with a fan pulling through it, and pushing to a baghouse. In the non-conditioned months, just bypass the baghouse and pump the air outside after the fan. Then there's no wear and tear on the bags either.

Most filtering setups are running the air the wrong way through the filter I think. With a cartridge filter, the dirty air should be on the outside, clean inside. Then use compressed air stream winding up to clean itself. I got the idea from watching a gadget for cleaning Ag air filters for tractors. There's a whole mess of problems with that though. Inaccessibility being one, having to setup PLC controllers for probably 20 different filters is another. Plus, it'd take a while to run through the sequence blowing out that much surface area.

The other idea, and the one that I think will actually work, is having expanded metal rolled into a tube, then slipping a filter sock over it. Filter tubes with the air going on the inside plug up way too easily. I want the opposite of how my baghouse currently operates I guess. If the dust is clinging to the outside, I think it'll release pretty easily. Possibly on it's own. I haven't come up with a good idea, (read simple), idea for knocking the dust off though.

Basically, I need to win the lottery so I can do this crap for fun.

[Darcy Warner]

25hp DC is nothing when you have 125hp running when a moulder is going.

It probably costs more to start and stop the DC than it does to keep it running.

[Martin Wasner]

No, but when you're using a 9hp shaper and a 1-1/2hp power feed with a 20hp dust collector to run an 1/8" round over it's a little crazy

[David Kumm]

If running separate DC systems I'd separate the sanding from the chips. Cyclone the the chips and run the sanding dust through either an outside to inside pulse jet cartridge box or a large singed poly felt auto shaker- inside to outside. Most shop cyclones separate 50-70% of fine dust so there isn't the bang for the buck although a preseparator doesn't hurt. A problem trying to use a cyclone for fines in a commercial shop is the cyclone may be oversized to circulate the smaller volume and velocity generated with only the sanders running. Cartridges can be designed as inside out but cleaning is hard and putting chips into them really makes a mess. Pulse jet cartridges for sanding and bags when running chips ( or venting outside ) may be the best choices. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

I agree, it's silly having all those horsepowers running when it's just one idiot making a mess. I've wondered at what point does it not matter and you just leave it running all day though because it's always in use by at least one person? My electric bill is about $500 a month for the shop, and another $1200 for the heat.... I should've slammed a propane boiler in but I was in a bad mood about propane after getting royally screwed on the price a year or two prior to building. A train fell off the tracks while a pipeline was shut down for maintenance and we were stuck paying almost $5 a gallon. Plus they were rationing. I'm getting a propane boiler in before next winter, I'm just pissing away too much money there.

I had three collectors in the old shop. I am going to add a small cyclone inside to service just the benches in the new shop. I just wanted it centralized with one disposal spot and I wanted to be filtering a lot of air. But that comes with the cost. Some of the stuff just needs a butt load of air too. Like the widebelt and the moulder. I ain't emptying bags on that moulder. That would be murder. And you're right, the medium sized collectors can be had pretty cheap. I think I paid $5k for my baghouse.

A while back you posted something about making a mess doing a climb cut. My initial thought was, "move more air". I didn't say it, because you've got what you've got. But, The shaper I've got doing my panel raising has a 10" drop to it. Holy crap does that thing suck up the chips. Hardly anything escapes. In fact sometimes something get's pitched out, and then it goes right back in. You'd lose your hat if you aren't careful.



I really wish I had the time for messing around with metal fab stuff. I've got two ideas for a baghouse I'd like to build. I'm pretty sure the first one is too complicated and won't work or be constantly plagued with filter problems, but I think the second would be just fine. I'd put a cyclone outside with a fan pulling through it, and pushing to a baghouse. In the non-conditioned months, just bypass the baghouse and pump the air outside after the fan. Then there's no wear and tear on the bags either.

Most filtering setups are running the air the wrong way through the filter I think. With a cartridge filter, the dirty air should be on the outside, clean inside. Then use compressed air stream winding up to clean itself. I got the idea from watching a gadget for cleaning Ag air filters for tractors. There's a whole mess of problems with that though. Inaccessibility being one, having to setup PLC controllers for probably 20 different filters is another. Plus, it'd take a while to run through the sequence blowing out that much surface area.

The other idea, and the one that I think will actually work, is having expanded metal rolled into a tube, then slipping a filter sock over it. Filter tubes with the air going on the inside plug up way too easily. I want the opposite of how my baghouse currently operates I guess. If the dust is clinging to the outside, I think it'll release pretty easily. Possibly on it's own. I haven't come up with a good idea, (read simple), idea for knocking the dust off though.

Basically, I need to win the lottery so I can do this crap for fun.

My winning the lottery scheme is to buy a 4x4 camper van with a KTM Adventure on the back and take off with my wife looking for adventure, all the while a new shop is being built back here while I wander, and being filled with robins egg blue and equivalent equipment, you know, just in case I need a break from all the adventure.

I too have come up with a lot of dream/schemes for collection. I agree that the filters are being used wrong, much harder to clean that way.

I was lucky my old shop was on Natural Gas, as is my new place. Still the old shop was about $1800 for heat in the cold months, propane, I would have had to close for the winter. I checked out where you are on the map when I was thinking of dropping in, and it would seem like at that location that you would be prime for a simple solar heat setup to take advantage of the southern exposure. Something you could build yourself. I'm above the 45th, and because of the great lakes get little sun for half the winter, so marginal here, but you should be good there I would think.

Ya, I noticed that big hose. I am running a 6", but my fan is less than 3200 cfm, not really positive as it is a junkyard dog. I just blow outside now and clean up with the tractor when I get ten yards or so, no empting anything, Ya Hoo! Not going to invest any more money in dust collection, I'm old, I have no employees any more and when you go to sell, dust collectors are a loser.

One of my dust collection ideas was a cement block room, about twenty by 20 with a height of about 15, and a flat ceiling that was all filter media on a welded grid. This grid would be hooked to a simple vibrator, and electrical motor with an eccentric weight. This would be on whenever the dust collector was on. The dust would enter under a baffle, and on this point I had several ideas, but the whole thing is so large that stuff would settle out. Two doors big enough to get my tractor in to clean it out, sealed tight of course. Summer final dump outside, winter blow it back inside.

So ya, me too........ Need to win the lottery!

[Mark Bolton]

Im in the separate systems camp. In a facility like yours if you had an 8 man crew in there and the associated in-flow of cash, there would be an advantage to firing up and leaving it running all day. I am in the same boat when running a single machine or sanding and I can be running dedicated shop vac collectors and if one sander is running one collector is running, two, two, three, three and so on. We have a main collector for the bulk of the shop that drives me nuts when the shop is noisy with sanding and the collector doesnt get shut off and simply sits there idling. Have a separate cyclone for the cnc. So to some extent each station has its own power burden.

I have tried to carry this modular philosophy anywhere and everywhere I can. Its the reason for the electric sanders. The notion of arbitrarily manufacturing massive amounts of air as being cheap or cost effective is coming to an end even in big industry. I think to often those of us growing into larger work simply carry forward the mistakes of the past as opposed to capitalizing on the current advances in the industry.

I want to be able to dial my consumption down proportionately in comparison to the operations being performed.\

The issues of cost with regards to firing up large machinery is definitely an issue when your on 3 phase demand rates. I knew several large operations that would allow alot of machines to simply idle all night long because if they walked in at 7am and fired the all up their demand rate for that period would be astronomical. Insane that the utilities would incentivize wasting power.

[Peter Christensen]

Martin I worked in an aerospace plant that had Donaldson Torit downdraft tables, that the smaller parts were sanded on and booths where the larger parts were sanded in. The booths had the air going into a unit that had 4 filters (190sq ft oval cartridges) pulling the air from outside in (the way you think they should be run) through the 5 hp impeller and then exhausting through HEPA filters that were added on. They had a compressed air back flow system to knock the dust off the individual filters, normally cycling all day, but they sound like small cannons going off, which PO's everyone, so they were only cycled at the end of the day or at shift change when used 24 hours a day. They would still eventually clog up and every 3 months they had to be changed or sent out for cleaning. Cleaning cost 25% to 30% of a new filter so saved money. They could be cleaned 3 to 4 times before needing to be replaced. I found out from the cleaning company that they won't clean the Chinese made filters from hobby DCs because they come apart in their machine. Ours were eventually setup with 6 filtration units (4 cartridges in each) in a row with a top and side at each end. Across the front was a curtain of heavy clear plastic strips cut short 2' from the floor to let the air in, and allow for moving in and out. One tip is to set up the work so the sanders are throwing the dust towards the collector and not the curtain. You might find used ones around or different brands doing the same thing. https://www.donaldson.com/en-us/indu...o-workstation/ Check out the brochure to see the layout options.
Before they started using the cleaning company I told them about, I got a couple dozen+ for myself that were being tossed every time. They cost me $40Can each to be cleaned but I have a lifetime supply for my own use.

Another type of downdraft system we had used water to filter out the dust. Dirty air was pulled down through a tank of water, then through water impinging filters, through the impeller and back over the operator. Good cool place to stand in the summer. http://www.hydrotron.net

[Darcy Warner]

Sorry, 20hp DC isn't really anything.

That's why you see a bunch of 15 to 20hp dustek/Murphy Rodgers set up for small groups of machines plus a 50 to 75 up unit outside with airlock/transfer blowers/shakers, pulse jet etc. How much more floor space is taken up by smaller individual collectors? How much more pipe? How much more wiring? Electricity is part of overhead, if you have to worry about a 20hp motor, something is not right.

[Mark Bolton]

Sorry, 20hp DC isn't really anything.

That's why you see a bunch of 15 to 20hp dustek/Murphy Rodgers set up for small groups of machines plus a 50 to 75 up unit outside with airlock/transfer blowers/shakers, pulse jet etc. How much more floor space is taken up by smaller individual collectors? How much more pipe? How much more wiring? Electricity is part of overhead, if you have to worry about a 20hp motor, something is not right.

As I said, I think its a matter of scale. And your "something not right" is spot on to me. Im talking about a small shop with 2-5 guys and more than likely less than that. As Martin has stated, he is running that entire shop alone at this point. When you factor in the fact that multiple stations are not running at full capacity simultaneously, it may well be smarter to break the system down a bit or try to batch the large demand work while the large DC is running. We have two cyclones in the shop and a few smaller DC's that take up very little floor space. The piping for a dedicated machine is virtually zero compared to extending or modifying a main branch to pick up a machine added to a currently unfed portion of the shop.

For me, my CNC was a perfect example. I could extend my mains 50' and deal with the loss or toss a cyclone in a dead corner right next to the machine with 8' of sheet metal pipe and a hank of flex to pick up the CNC. The best part is that the HP that feeds the CNC DC is only running when the CNC is running.

I couldnt agree more that when you pass a breaking point a 25HP motor is inconsequential in the overall operating costs. In my small shop, when I hit the blower on the booth, the temp in the shop in the winter crashes. When I duct my DC outside in the summer, my shop turns into an oven with drawn in hot, wet air, which then means the AC has to work twice as hard to pull water out and we are still sweating.

Sounds like Martin and I are a bit similar in that we are constantly trying to think of cost effective ways to run, and run efficiently.

[Darcy Warner]

It's usually just me and a PT guy, but it doesn't bother me when I have a couple hundred HP worth of motors running. Heck the gang rip is 75hp. If I get two moulders running at the same time, that's over 265 hp.

My planer is almost 20hp running, rip saw is 20hp running.
You have a few separate collectors going in a decent sized shop and you will have at least 20hp+ combined running. If you are worried about start up, add a soft start.

Be days I run everything, then days nothing is on because I am working on customers equipment.