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Thread: Dust collection

  1. #1

    Dust collection

    As I set up my shop I've been looking at a variety of tools. I've been reading all the old threads and asking questions. I've never used dust collection. If I had extra money I wanted to buy another tool😁. Recently I've been more aware of a need to protect myself. Originally I was going to get a shop vac and a dust deputy. Now I think I will get a 1100 to 1200 cfm collector with the canister filter on top. Possibly put a air filter near the ceiling. After reading these threads I'm even considering a nice festool or Bosch sander with one of the nice festool or fein vacuums.
    My question is about layout of the rigid/flexible ducting. I've seen metal ducting for sale in the catalogs. I've got to do it cheaper then that. Can I use 4" black abs pipe from home depot? Do you guys buy your fittings at home depot or do you buy them from stores like Rocker? Where do buy your flexible pipe? If 4" pipe from home depot is what you use how does it connect to flexible hose and fittings such as blast Gates? I knew that grounding wire was used but didn't realize how important it was until I used the shop vac to clean out my table saw and touched the saw😨. How do you run the grounding wire? On the inside of pipe? Wrapped around outside? Do I need to drive a hole into the ground so I can put copper into the earth? How far away can I putt dust collector. I'd like to put it at the far end of the 20x50 shop so it's a little quieter. Will I lose a lot of suction? Is there a simple book or article somewhere that will give me a good idea of what to do?
    Have you ever seen this many questions in a single thread🙃
    I
    One more question, in buying stuff for your shop do you find that you start off looking at getting one tool for like $1,000 and talk yourself into A $1,500 tool and then come home with a $2,000 tool. The original idea of a 6" grizzly jointer with blades eventually turns into a 8" powermatic with a helical cutter head. Idea of 14" grizzly bandsaw turns into a 18" Laguna.
    I'm so thankful for an amazing wife. The other day I told her that I wanted a 8" jointer and she said maybe you should look into getting a 12" jointer😙😙😙😙

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Marietta, GA
    Posts
    275
    Instead of a "system" I have four 1 HP dust collectors. Three I bought used for $100 or less. The other is a Grizzly I caught on sale for $149. One is dedicated to my CNC, another to my table saw, and other two are "floaters" that I hook up to other equipment as needed. It may not be as convenient as a system, but it's cheap, I don't lose suction due to long runs, turns, fittings, etc., and I always have a backup if a dust collector goes down. Having the two dedicated to my two main tools keeps it from being a constant chore to connect them. I'm only running the dust collection that I need at the time rather than a large collector needed to pull through a piping system just for a small sander.

    I can't really help you out on the pipe itself, but for dust collection fittings Grizzly is way cheaper than Rockler or any other woodworking store or catalog outlet that I've ever seen. I'm not sure about the quality of their hose as I've bought all mine from Rockler back when they'd have it on sale for $20.00 for 4" x 10'. If I needed more I'd try Grizzly.

    In my opinion the need to ground the system is way overblown. When you got a shock vacuuming out your table saw did it catch on fire? I didn't think so. It's just a minor static discharge and the chance of conditions being perfect for a dust explosion are nil. None of mine are grounded and I don't even get any annoying static shocks. If you do ground it all you have to do is connect it to the metal frame of the equipment and the dust collector. That will then ground it through the electrical connection.

    Yes, I have to be careful not to let tools creep up in price. Most recently I was looking at $10,000 saw/shaper and ended up with a $16,000 saw/shaper. In the long run it will be worth it, but that was a pretty big bite to swallow.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Marietta, GA
    Posts
    275
    I forgot to mention emptying the collectors. Four may sound like a pain, but it takes four times as long for them to fill up. Since 3 of them are portable (the one on the CNC is mounted to the wall) I often take them outside to empty them and give them a good cleaning with the leaf blower. Much easier than trying to empty a collector in the shop and not scatter all that dust you took the trouble to collect. For my jointer/planer I use a trash can lid separator which works very well. I keep the shavings separate from the dust and give them to a local feed and seed store that sells them for animal bedding. They let me throw a couple of bags of dust in the dumpster in exchange and I'm not dealing with getting rid of the shavings. Sometimes I generate ten 30 gallon bags full in a week. That's after mashing them down in the trash can before bagging them. If you do give away shavings for animals don't allow any walnut or the exotic woods in the mix. Walnut will poison animals and some of the exotics can be a problem also.

    I also have a dust extractor vacuum (an older DeWalt they don't sell any more) for my ROS, and an air filter hanging from the ceiling. If I were going to get a new dust extractor now I'd probably get a Bosch. The new DeWalts don't allow you to adjust the suction, which is important in my opinion. For general clean up I have a couple of Ridgid wet/dry vacs. I also have a Ridgid wet/dry vac on my vertical panel saw. I use it so seldom that I only have to empty it every couple of months and that's to clean the filter, not because its full.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    E TN, near Knoxville
    Posts
    12,298
    The size of pipe you use will depend on the dust collector you use, the length of the run and the type of tools connected. For example, a 4" duct connected to even a powerful DC might not be sufficient for a 12" or even an 8" jointer, depending on the volume of chips you make - the small duct could choke the airflow and the volume of chips could clog the duct. You can put together a system on the cheap that might work or you can properly size a system that might cost a lot more but is guaranteed to work. You might need to research this some more. I can't imagine a 50' run with a 4" duct working very well. Some people have installed undersized systems then had to tear them out and buy a properly sized system.

    I bought 6" S&D PVC pipe from a plumbing supply house and found the best price on fittings at a local ACE hardware store. 6" duct will move a lot of material but does need a properly sized collector. Mine is a 5hp ClearVue cyclone, incredibly powerful. It tries to suck my arm into the inlet at the lathe if I get my hand too close. My longest run is over 40'.

    I bought high-quality 4" and 6" flexible duct from ClearVue and some lower quality but acceptable 4" stuff from WoodCraft. If you use clamps and twist-on fittings be careful that you buy the flex duct to match - it comes in right hand or left hand twist.

    Running a wire inside a non-conducting duct does nothing to discharge static buildup. It will only pick up electrons from a tiny area immediately next to the wire. The same thing for the outside. For a static-free duct use metal. I don't know how much charge my PVC ducts build up; I don't think I've ever touched one.

    Connecting various sized ducts, fittings, blast gates, and machine inlets is often a problem. I made lots of adapter rings from PVC fittings and from PVC pipe, cutting a slice from the circumference then gluing into other rings.

    For a happy installation install the DC in a sound insulated closet. I built a 4x8 closet to house the cyclone and a 5hp air compressor. It is quiet enough outside the closet to hear a whisper. Without the closet the sound level will cause hearing damage without protection.

    Another way to keep your lungs safe is to forget the dust collector and never work in the shop without a respirator. You may have to do this anyway if the DC is not up to the task.

    You might read and study this: http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/
    It will take a while!

    JKJ

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Elmodel, Ga.
    Posts
    798
    Brian, check out Grizzly's website. They have dust fittings, pipe and pretty much anything to do with DC. Their plastic fittings are much cheaper than anywhere else I have looked. I haven't used much metal pipe so I can't comment on the price. If I were you, I'd go with 6" pipe. I have 4" on a 12 foot run and it does ok, but my main run that goes 18 feet is 6" and has more air flow. I am only running a 2 hp unit with a separator before the unit and I vent outside so there is no need for a filter.
    My Dad always told me "Can't Never Could".

    SWE

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Marietta, GA
    Posts
    275
    I remembered another advantage to "non-system system". I don't have to consider dust collection when buying a new piece of equipment or rearranging things in the shop. As long as it has a 4" port, or I can adapt it to 4", I'm good to go. I have slip connect fittings on the ends of all my hoses and a spare coupling in case I need to hook two hoses together for a longer reach.

    I have a new shaper which has two dust ports. I just made up a special hose for it with a Y so I still hook it up to my standard 4" dust collector. I also have a disc sander and spindle sander that share a cart and I hooked them together and used blast gates so I hook up the cart to the dust collector and both pieces are covered since I use them together and jump back and forth between them a lot.

  7. #7
    I tried to post a thank you to you guys yesterday but it looks like it didn't post. So much great advice. If I would have tried to do it on my own I would have spent money and the system wouldn't have worked. You blessed me. Thanks, you were very thorough ☺☺☺

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Bloomington, IL
    Posts
    6,009
    Brian were you looking at black corrugated flex pipe for drainage from the home center? Stay away from that.

  9. Brian,

    Unless it's completely outside your budget I'd strongly suggest doing it properly and getting a good quality 5hp cyclone and running 6" or even 8" ducting. You have a big shop and what sounds like good quality and large tools. Don't skimp on the dust collection.

    I can recommend the Clearvue, but the large Oneida systems also look good. You guys in the states can get both for a really good price compared to us in Australia, which to me makes them even more of a no-brainer. A clearvue system here costs about the same as a Sawstop 3HP Professional. I think the dust collector should be the most expensive power tool in your shop, as in my opinion, it's the most important.

    It's also important to modify your dust ports on most machines to 6" and use an overhead collector for the table saw IMO.

    I'd do some reading, even Bill Pentz's site and then make an informed decision.

    Cheers, Dom

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Toronto Ontario
    Posts
    11,248
    Brian, I also suggest you purchase a good collector, probably a cyclone with a HEPA filter.

    Forget about HP ratings, they are almost meaningless when talking about dust collectors. You can also forget about 4 inch pipe, even for machine connection.

    A table saw will need 500 to 600 CFM under the blade and 100 to 200 CFM over the blade, which puts you in the 5 inch range for the cabinet and 2 to 3 inch for the over blade hood.

    The first thing you need to do is make a shop layout sketch, and tabulate how many CFM you need at each point, and the static pressure loss. Only then can you look at the performance curves of the collector and determine if it will do the job.

    If you can't get a performance curve from the vendor, don't buy their machine.

    Bill Pentz has a website with a good Excel spreadsheet that calculates the pressure drops for you........It's a lot of work and learning, however you'll have a system that actually works.

    Regards, Rod.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Marshall, Michigan
    Posts
    204
    Blog Entries
    1
    Brian, I use the 4 inch by 10 foot long "drain" pipe from Lowes. It's thin wall and cheap. Fittings from Lowes also but you will need special transition fittings to go from drain pipe to the flex hose. Those are available from Rocklers and Amazon. I use the Harbor Freight dust collector and it has worked fine for me for over 10 years. It's not the Cadillac by a long shot but it keeps the saw dust down. Although I've not done it, you can upgrade it by replacing the top bag with a filter canister.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Griswold Connecticut
    Posts
    6,927
    Brian

    The DC1100, or DC1200, is really the minimum. I have the DC1100, so I kinda know how much it can take. It can barely handle a table saw with both overhead and cabinet dust pickups. I have used it with my 27" dual drum sander, but it is pretty inadequate for that task. I can make it work, but barely.

    You can run 4" ABS plastic pipe, but you would be better going up to 6" drain. As long as either is smooth walled, you can make it work. Make your transition to 4" flexible as close to the machine as possible. There are a few companies that make transition adapters for 4" PVC to 4" dust collection, but a 4" Fernco coupler will work just fine.
    Avoid installing an 90 degree fittings if all possible. Use 45 degree fittings with a straight piece in between. Don't use any "Tee's".

    Don't worry about static buildup. It's not the problem that urban myth makes it out to be.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    E TN, near Knoxville
    Posts
    12,298
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas L Carpenter View Post
    ...I use the Harbor Freight dust collector and it has worked fine for me for over 10 years. It's not the Cadillac by a long shot but it keeps the saw dust down.
    I understand from research that there are two considerations: one is keeping the visible dust down. The more important is keeping the invisible fine dust out of the air and lungs. From my reading the only way to test the effectiveness of a dust collector is to wait and see if you get lung disease or test with an air quality particulate monitor. It uses a laser to measure fine dust particles you can't see. I use this one:
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004AWEG0Y
    dylos_particulate_monitor.jpg
    Unfortunately it is not cheap.

    Without such a monitor for testing you can wear a good respirator with P100 filters at all times when working wood and for hours afterwards, since the very fine particles can hang around. I check the monitor to know when it is safe to work without the respirator. Read Bill Pentz for some thoughts on this.

    I keep five of these in the shop and wear them when sanding at the lathe (where pickup is sketchy) even though I have the 5hp cyclone running. Very comfortable.
    respirator.jpg

    JKJ

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    San Diego, Ca
    Posts
    1,647
    Brian, in part of my DC system I used 5" galvanized steel pipe. I recall that it came in 5' sections that slide together. There is a snap-together seam but if it leaks I think that it is minimal. But nevertheless, I ran some aluminum tape over the seam as well as where the slide together. I oriented the pipe so chips wouldn't catch on the front of the next section of pipe. I got it at either Lows or Home Despot. It is used to vent things like a furnace. Not terribly expensive. To ground it, all you need to do is run a wire from something grounded to the metal pipe. All you need to do is to bleed off the charge. The current is essentially negligible.

    When you start putting together your system of piping measure the ID and OD of the pipe and fittings. IIRC the black ABS pipe is incompatible with the white PVC and D&W pipe size-wise. There are a lot of incompatibilities to deal with.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    65,694
    Dust Collection Systems always need to embrace that last word..."system". It's not just the machine or just the ductwork or just the collection ports/hoods on the cutting machines. It's how the combination works together to effectively eliminate the most chips and fines produced by cutting and other machining operations as possible, within reason. Dust collection isn't so much about "suction". Dust collection is primarily about air flow. The more air that flows through the system in a minute (measured in cubic feet per minute-CFM), the more dust and chips will be moved from where they are produced to where they are intended to be collected for disposal. IE...more air; more better dust collection.

    At the dust collection machine itself, the better designed/larger the blower, the more air that can potentially flow. Relative to the duct work, the larger the area of cross section, the more air that can fit in the duct and (again, within reason) the more material that can be transported from the producer to the collection/disposal point. The larger the port at the machine, the more air that can flow into the port and consequently, the more material that can be enticed to flow with it. I've mentioned "within reason" a few times simply because in the typical shop scenario for many SMC community members, there's a practical limit to the size of the dust collection machine which in turn also affects the optimal size for the duct work attached between it and the individual machines. Many 3-5 hp DC systems are best served by 6-7" main ductwork. 6" duct has about twice the area of 4" duct. When it's possible to connect directly to a machine with a 6" drop, it's reasonable to experience up to 1000 CFM of collection capability. But even if the port on the machine is 120mm, 5" or even 4", there's still a benefit to that 6" main duct. Some of it is "venturi effect". The bottom line is that the more capable the DC system you employ, the better your collection will be and that means the better it will be for your health. Filtration/separation is the other factor to consider and at this point, many folks use cyclone systems for collection because the pre-separation makes disposal easier and the fines that do get past pre-separation are minimal and easier filtered.

    Duct work material comes down to personal preference. Metal offers more flexibility in sizes since you're not limited to "even numbers", but can sometimes be a little more costly to initially install. PVC/ABS is sometimes easier to install, but you get your choice of 4" or 6" or 8"...no 5" or 7". FYI, my shop uses metal duct...starts at 7" from my cyclone, transitions to 6" past the first major branch and has both 5" and 4" drops to machines, depending on what they are.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 02-11-2018 at 9:37 AM.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

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