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Thread: Blue elephant CNC

  1. #16
    Thanks Bruce I’ll take a look!

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Dawson Creek, BC
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    For those type of carvings I would pay close attention to the acceleration speeds the machine can achieve. I have done those type of carvings in cab doors, and in a man door your machining time can become ridiculous with an under powered machine. The fine details are made with a 1/16" or 1/8" ball nose bit moving across your part at 1/64" (or less) spaces. I was going to make a nice large carving for a friend on my machine, programmed it out (roughing, then fine) and it was 19hr of machine time. Needless to say, I opted not to build that. To cut that time down takes fast acceleration/deceleration rates and that is only attained with a larger servo.

    My machine came from 1500mi away and I looked at one that would have came from 2,500miles. I understand that.

    With your budget and business plan flexibility I would start with a smaller machine like others have done and move up later if it works out well. The little guys are easy to re-sell, but you will take a bath trying to re-sell that $8,300 machine even if anyone wanted it later.

    Richard, I drive a 4x4 chev, but I needed a car I would likely drive a non US version.

  3. #18
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    Dec 2007
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    Rochester NY
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    Brad, I guess you saw my car post before I deleted it. Thought it sounded a little snarky, and as new guy around here didn't want to get that sort of reputation. I spend a lot of time on the Practical Machinist forum, whole different tone there!

    Good point about starting with a smaller machine - less financial and square footage commitment. And it does seem that the smaller machines are harder to find and increasingly popular. They can appeal to both the hobby and professional world. I think there are a lot of professional wodworkers, like myself, who are not so much interested in cuttting sheet goods or signmaking, but in making solid wood parts and jigs, fixtures and templates.

    Matt, i didn't realize you're in Hawaii. Gotta be better thngs to do there than spend your time in a shop with a screaming router!

  4. #19
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    Richard, I did not see that comment as snarky. It was a valid point. The only reason many of us have access to CNC machines is because of the smaller NA companies that have the patience to deal with us frugal characters. The big companies could care less about anything under 4'x8'. CR Onsrud had a small carving machine years ago, but I think they have dropped that. It looked like it cost $25k or more and I bet they had a heck of a time moving units.

  5. #20
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    Brad, I think that the smaller machines (sub-4x8) are somewhat of a new market, relatively speaking, and that many of the longer-term companies peddling "big iron" don't feel a pull to engage there...at least so far. The companies that are catering to individuals and shops that are ideally suited to more modest machine sizes are really coming up with some nice solutions; both at the hobby level and in the "small, industrial-built" CNC machine level. And for those "big machines" companies that have turned up their noses? They will not be the first choice for folks who want to move up to larger if they have been well served by a company that has both small and large solutions.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Marquette, MI USA
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    519
    To Matthew.. (the OP)
    I have not heard of Blue Elephant CNC, in the real world that is. I have been plastered with their flashing adds when browsing the "Zone". This forum is heavily trafficked, and if no one is commenting, I propose that there are 3 options. 1) No one has purchased one 2) There have been purchases and they are busy cutting and don't have time to post, or 3) There have been purchases, but the purchasers do not want to admit in public how bad they were burned. My guess is that there is a small number each of options 2 and 3.

    When you say: "
    US built machines but almost double the price....
    "


    Of course that's true. The US router table buyer is a whiney bunch. They want support, they want service and they want a warranty. And if you listen carefully they even want the parts they break or blow up to be covered too. Kids, those thing cost money. A lot of money. Especially support.

    Take for example a mythical company that will support anything you buy from them for as long as you, or anyone you sell to, or anyone they sell to..... until the machine rusts into a pile of red colored dust. Totally unsustainable. If it were, US automakers would be doing it, they are larger and much richer companies than any CNC mfgr. Can you imagine an automaker that provided how to info to the 2nd, 3rd or 4th owner of a vehicle that they had sold 15 years ago? Impossible to sustain. So they offer a warranty for a fixed number of time or distance. And they charge (recertify) for a subsequent owner. Now that most viable CNC mfgr's in the US have thousands of older units out in the world, they will do the same. The days of "free everything" for CNC purchases is over, I predict.

    Back to imported CNC's: There are 3 grades of products based on what the purchasers want. 1) The low grade cheapo stuff that the DIY bunch wants (read as sold on eBay) 2) an intermediate, or OEM grade that has some product warranty and are sold in higher quantities, but at a higher price 3) Purchaser specified. A purchaser specs out a product and it is made primarily for them. They may resell, repaint, re-anything. Doesn't mean those specs are higher, it does mean that there are a given bunch of tolerances at a given price.

    Since US buyers want "brand name" goodies, some importers have them spec'ed in the product. But... are they actually using German made Siemens or Italian made HSD? Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. eBay and other online suppliers are full of Chinese clones. Hell, even my favorite Chinese motor/drive supplier gets hacked by eBay knockoffs. Sorry, but that is an irony that I have to chuckle about.

    I have researched this a lot as I am about to take a jump into purchasing small format imported machines and doing a custom "retro-mod" on them for those that require a machine that has higher performance and features than US mfgr's produce. Remachining where necessary, replacing any component that cannot be provided by myself or online seller in the US with brand name higher end motion and control components with recognizable names.

    I did say custom, remember? If you followed another thread about options that would be desired for "the ultimate woodworking machine" there were loads of desired options. Very few, if any, were proposed that were not on my list of "standard options" or features that I have already fitted onto previous machines and posted videos of. What will be really custom is that the owner selects ala-carte which options he want to pay for. That includes setup and training, support and a warranty.

    It's simple, low price or high feature, the buyer decides. Same as home or auto extended warranty's. Want one? Pay for it! Small format ATC machines that are overbuilt and can have an extended gantry height without sacrificing on the deflection to cut high tolerance items like hardwood furniture and guitar parts without having to sacrifice cut speed. Brand name servos, linear rails, helical rack, lube systems.... the list goes on. Pic attached (think "wood milling machine"

    2030 ATC.JPG
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Cleveland OH
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    Take a quick look at there machine line up - Its all over the place, different colors, vacuum location, control units. My guess is this company doesn't even produce Cnc machines, they simply run around China finding cheap units, slapping on a Elephant sticker and boom now they have a Cnc line. If this company was producing there own unit they would be constant, vacuum setups would be setup in similar ways. Hell if you view there Cnc models even the brand name isn't constant. Check out there ATC line and you can see that each machine has a different control cabinet, view a US company and most of there cabinets are similar to save money and to create brand awareness. When buying from China your saving money on labor, all the parts import from Italy and Germany still cost the same, How can they offer a machine at 50% Off ??

    You stated the machine is only $8300 ??? The HSD spindle they "State" is included would be 1/3 of that cost alone, My guess is your gonna get alot of knock off parts. If you look at there rates for there machine (Converted to Inches) Rapid Travel 1300 in/min and 1000 In/min - Those rates are no where near true for this machine, maybe if you spent about $60K (Just a Guess). Advice from someone who puts out about 5000 parts a week, look for a reparable company, good customer service and get your parts sampled before purchasing. If you can view one in person that is the best bet, this way all the smoke and mirrors are gone and you know exactly what your buying.

    Final Note : Take a look at that software - thats about as basic as it gets, plan on spending about $700 for 2D software and about $2000 for 3D software.
    With your budget I would go to Ebay and check out some used machines, you can find some nice used machines out there. I see a few used Shopbots on there in your price range.

    Good Luck
    Robert
    Last edited by Robert Bonenfant; 02-15-2018 at 11:04 PM.
    3X Camfive 1200 48" x 24" 100watt Tube
    Zcorp 450 3d Printer
    Laguna Smartshop 2 - 4x8 ATC

  8. #23
    Thanks Robert! Sorry I havent got back to this thread in a while. I’m working 7-12’s on night shift and just way too busy.
    I appreciate your comments, I notice you own a Laguna Smart shop! They have a model for about 15k, that’s a bit more than I want to spend but is a good price for the US market. Have you been happy with the machine?
    I will take another look at shopbot and see what is available. 5000 parts a week 🤯 that’s insane!!!
    I really appreciate everyone’s feedback! I’m listening and just processing what you have all said and trying to decide my path forward. Thank you everyone!

  9. #24
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    Matthew, if you have not already done so, speak with your accountant about how to structure the business such that you can take advantage of tax laws relative to your acquisition of the machinery you want...it can absolutely be the difference between settling on "currently possible" and "what you really want and need". I just went through this and it's eye opening. It's the number one reason I was able to go for a larger, better machine than I originally intended to buy.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  10. #25
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    The Tax Law 179 is a wonderful option. I have been taking advantage of this tax break since 2009, its been a great option for even my little one man sign shop.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Outten View Post
    The Tax Law 179 is a wonderful option. I have been taking advantage of this tax break since 2009, its been a great option for even my little one man sign shop.
    Yup...even with the, um...adjustments...that affect small businesses in recent tax code changes, there's still great advantage. Even if things don't ultimately workout for my plan--starting a business always comes with risk--the tax advantages more or less will take care of the start-up costs. My accountant and I worked through things and that's why we decided to do an S-Corp. Sole-proprietorships are pretty much a "dead" idea financially at this point.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #27
    Yes thank you! I’ve been looking at the LLC option. I had an S Corp Year’s ago in California and it didn’t turn out for me. I never really got the business off the ground and come to find out you have to pay a minimum $800 a year in California taxes for an S Corp. I ended up owing $3500 just in taxes for a business I never made a dime on. I’m looking at LLC this time and I don’t believe Hawaii has an annual fee to own an LLC. I plan to open the business before my purchase for the tax incentives. I haven’t spoken to a CPA yet but was planning too. Thanks for the tip!

  13. #28
    Dont over look used machines. Many companies start a business and fail. You might be able to get a decent sized machine for a lot less

  14. #29
    Join Date
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    Location
    Cleveland OH
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    We have been extremely happy with our smartshop routers. The one thing I would stress is make sure you have a business plan and try to map out what your gonna do.
    You want to make sure you try to think of everything from tooling, vacuum power and what products are available. Check to see if you can buy Wholesale sheet goods and lumber. Homedepot is great for a general contractors & Homeowners but they offer low end plywood and there lumber is expensive for what your buying.

    Unexpected Expenses -
    We bought our machine and with the generic vacuum they provided we were dead in the water, it couldn't hold our parts - $9,000 later we had to buy a Becker Vacuum (works wonderful but expensive for a support item). We got a nice contract to cut MDF, it was great money but super dusty. Another $12,000 for a dust system that could handle our work load - If we didnt have the capital on hand to cover these upgrades than we wouldn't be able to work with our two largest customers.

    I think you have a unique situation being that you live in Hawaii, just make sure to do a lot of research.
    3X Camfive 1200 48" x 24" 100watt Tube
    Zcorp 450 3d Printer
    Laguna Smartshop 2 - 4x8 ATC

  15. #30
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    Bloomington, IL
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    Robert, what was the generic vac you got originally? Also which becker model did you buy? I keep dreaming of a vtl becker.

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