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John,Originally Posted by John C Cox
I didn't talk you into it. Be interested to see your take after. BTW, you should listen to Bridger, he has as much patience with rust as anyone I know. Personally I have too little time to spend it rehabbing a questionable iron when there are so many good ones available. But as always whatever blows your skirt.
ken
Contributor
John,
Discretion is the better part of valor. I am with Ken, Bridger, and Jim. If after the soak it comes out with only minor pitting, it might be worth flattening on the back. I have spent HOURS flattening the backs of plane irons, and the battle is not easily won, nor without great price sometimes.
I have come to the conclusion that if I need to have a spare iron for a plane, especially a big plane, I will buy a CS replacement from LV or LN, or some similar supplier that flattens the back of the blade before you buy it. If you are buying the iron on that auction site, you will likely pay at least half to two thirds the cost of a good new iron from one of the above places, one that needs almost no flattening. Saving a dollar an hour flattening the back of an iron over buying a quality replacement is something I am never going to do again if I am in the place of having to buy a replacement or spare iron.
If I already have the iron and is not to bad I will give it a go, but no more rust buckets for me.
Small chisels are not awful to flatten if the back is not badly pitted, but you are talking about a small surface area. Big stuff is something else again. If you have a lot more time than money it might be worth the battle.
However, remember if you use sandpaper on a glass plate, or something similar, that sandpaper costs money too. You can spend a lot of time and money for sandpaper, or whatever, to flatten the back of that chisel.
It won't hurt to soak it in evaporust or vinegar, and follow up with cleaning as the folks above mentioned. However, if it were me I would examine it carefully after the soak, wire brushing, and buffing. If it were pitted significantly I too would buff it up good and make it into a decoration. BTDT, flattening the back of a large and badly pitted steel or cast iron blade is no fun, and often takes hours bent over a stone, sand paper on a plate, or diamond stone in my experience.
Bridger, as per your comment, I am not planning to do that again any time soon either.
Stew
Last edited by Stew Denton; 02-07-2018 at 12:54 AM.
Contributor
And only takes me ...10 minutes...tops...
That 2" wide "slick" I rehabbed? 2 hours, maybe....counting the new handle...
"Hours"?I think not.....
Contributor
Steven, I have seen enough of your rehabs to know that you are better at it and drastically faster than I am.
Also, my experience with old chisels is that they tend to be a little softer than a big plane iron from a Stanley #6 or larger. I worked on two big plane irons one afternoon in December, probably 3 hours at least. I had made good progress on one but the other one had a quite a ways to go, but that worst one was not remotely close to flat. The one I made good progress on was not flat either, but it was not nearly as bad as the other. The "out of flat" was actually the much bigger problem than the corrosion. It had a big old convex surface that was a pain in the exterior back side.
Only in my dreams could I fix one in 10 minutes. If I used a flat belt sander or something it might go greatly faster. However, with sandpaper on a granite block.......or even with the diamond stones I was using.......not so good.
Stew
Last edited by Stew Denton; 02-07-2018 at 1:10 AM.
Member
Steven,And only takes me ...10 minutes...tops...
That 2" wide "slick" I rehabbed? 2 hours, maybe....counting the new handle...
"Hours"?
Show us your secret, inquiring minds want to know.
I doubt I've ever flatten the back of even a new iron, chisel or plane, except maybe a LV cutter, in less than 10 minutes. But then I'm prone to flat head syndrome and have spent my life ridding in the short bus. Whatever, I'm always open to learn.
I've found most old iron in addition to some rust stains and maybe pitting have a belly because of improper sharpening by someone in its past. Irons from the UK can be the worst because sellers often tart 'em up with a belt sander to make the cutter look better. Then they can ask more for the tool dontchknow. How long it takes to true depends how big a belly you have to work through. BTW, a belt sander can make an impressive belly very quickly.
ken
Contributor
Seriously...80 grit PSA paper stuck down onto something like a granite plate makes pretty quick work of this. I've got a surface plate that is about 4" wide and 18" long, which is a perfect size for back flattening. With the length of it you can really hog off material, enough to get the metal hot to the touch.
Don't hesitate to change the paper once you've used the entire surface; it seems to remove more material in the first minute or two of work with a fresh sheet than in the next ten.
Lastly, you only need to remove the pits from the first inch or so from the edge (you can even do less). You will want to establish a flat surface for a few inches past that, but that surface can contain pits and it won't cause any problems.
Contributor
OK, the very next "Rusty & Krusty" chisel that comes through the shop...I will do a little photo blog on the way I do the job. Might take twice as long...having to stop and take a picture.
I really don't "mess around" doing a rehab.....have learned over a decade or so, how to get these done as fast as I can. Oh, and I do not use a "soak" on things.
Member
I have to say that I'm in Mr. Newman's court as far as rehabbing an old blade. I don't think I've ever spent much more than an hour. I don't have the patience to screw around with anything, so I get'er done. I never had a job where I got paid by the hour so hustling just becomes a way of life.
Last edited by Bob Leistner; 02-07-2018 at 11:19 PM.
Member
Rehabbing old tools is a great hobby, if that is what you want to do with your shop time. Good on you, there are a lot of old tools than need some love but the bottom line if you want to make furniture, rehabbing a questionable tool is usually not productive.
I've done most of the things to true a back, diamond plates, 80 grit PSA sandpaper on granite, loose diamonds on MDF, loose diamonds on glass. Pretty much you name it, BTDT. Now I will admit my skills may not be up to the level of some on this board but I been to this rodeo a few times. In my experience, let's take 80 grit sandpaper on granite (the same objection applies to most of the other ways as well), it will remove metal quickly if the paper is changed often but you end up with a back that is not much flatter than when you started and has deep scratches that must be removed with the next grit. To take the iron to truly flat surface you will have almost as much iron to remove as when you started on the 80 grit and you still have the deep scratches to deal with. Again maybe I'm a little picky or have very poor technique but in my experience using 80 grit sandpaper is a waste of time. The same applies to most other short cuts, quick ways, or what have you. A iron that has been abused is not worth the effort unless that is your hobby or you just enjoy a challenge. I'd rather make furniture.
I think my post on old tools is still up, I like old tools because they work better than most new ones but I don't start with junk, Pick the tools carefully and make sure they are worth the investment in time to bring to a useful tool.
ken
Contributor
In case nobody noticed....when I am doing a project..everything goes towards getting that job done....but, I tend to use the "downtime" between projects to maintain the tools I have..and do a little rust hunt as cash allows. I am NEVER into a "production mode" BTDT, never again. I am retired, so my time is what I want to do that day...woodwork..rehab work.....road trips to find another useful tool....does not really matter.
At some point, all those "production shop" people do have to stop and maintain whatever tools they use. Unless they have "Staff" to do those menial chores for them.
I vary the type of projects I do, in order to give some of the tools I used on the last project a "break" while I work on the next job. If I have a little time ( glue-ups curing...)THEN I can refresh a tool or two....before they would be needed.
The main reasons I am so fast with a rehab....after a lot of years of practice, I know what works the best for each tool I rehab...took a long time to get to this point...but in a way, it was also FUN...and THAT is why I do this work...rehab...build a cabinet....because I am having fun. I told one Factory job that I was there as long as I was having fun...the day after it no longer was fun to show up at that time clock....I had quit, and moved on.
The chisel I thought I was going to get today...I had already bought and rehabbed quite a while ago....flat back and all..
IMG_3112 (640x480).jpg
Sold by a Hardware Supplier out of Cleveland, OH..Brand name of "Cleancut". A few small pits, but none in the edge area...1-1/4"? wide.
IMG_3111 (640x480).jpg
A nice, big, firmer chisel..
Now, let's see IF the OP's chisel turns out this good..
Member
Try loose diamonds on cast iron. MDF doesn't work (for long) because the irons recede into the surface too easily, and stop cutting. Glass doesn't work very well because it's about Rc53, which is high enough that the diamond particles don't reliably embed in the lap. Iron (or mild steel if you're cheap) is a good middle ground.
FWIW I do initial flattening with super coarse (Down to 60#, 250 um) diamond discs on a rotary sharpener, and then move to diamond compound on cast iron laps. It's not the cheapest way to go, particularly when you consider how long those discs don't last, but it saves a lot of time.
Last edited by Patrick Chase; 02-08-2018 at 12:46 PM.
Contributor
I've rehabbed a bunch of chisels. I got the bug to get a set of firmer Swan chisels (rectangular cross section) marked "Best Cast Steel" or "Best Tool Steel", and a set of bevel sided Witherby chisels. When you chase down chisels sometimes you find that what was sold to you was not quite as good as the seller claimed. So I got pretty good at flattening the backs of chisels that had some rust. As long as there's no pitting on the cutting edge the chisel will work fine. Sometimes there's pitting further up the chisel but I figure by the time I sharpen that far, I'll have worn the back down with the sharpening to get that far.
Antique chisels will not hold an edge as long as the modern chisels but they certainly can be effectively used to build furniture. They were all our ancestors had and they produced some fine furniture.
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Contributor
Steven,
I would be interested in your technique, if I can learn to save some time. The biggest time burner for me is getting old Stanley plane irons flat, and I have spent quite some time flattening one from time to time. The big ones are the main problem, particularly if it is convex....a true pain. I always think, though, thank goodness I only have to do this one once.
I have a few extra irons, and need to flatten them. Time is always to battle though.
The chisels I have done have not seemed to be the problem the plane irons are, but maybe it's just because I haven't done a really big chisel yet.....but that is coming.
I am glad you get to do quite a bit of fun stuff. I enjoy watching your projects progress!
Regards,
Stew
Last edited by Stew Denton; 02-07-2018 at 11:19 PM.
Member
Every year, at the OWWM gathering swap meet, the same guy brings tupperware containers filled with vintage chisels. He has 2 piles....$5 & $10. I can't help myself, so I always end up loading up. This past year, I completed a timber framing set, size wise, including a couple of bigger Greenlee gouges and skews.
I'm not suggesting anyone run out and buy a 2"X72" belt grinder, but I have one for grinding plane irons and occasional knives that I make (hunting). It has a 2 hp 3 phase motor, and I control it with a VFD. I keep the platen flat, and on slow speed, with an 80 grit belt, it makes short work of flattening the back of even a 3" slick. I'll then throw on a 340 grit ceramic belt, just to eliminate the big scratches. Less than 2 minutes, including a few dunks in water to keep the iron cool, and the rust and any small pitting is gone.
Like I already said, I'm not suggesting you run out and spend $1K plus on a belt grinder, but if you know somebody who has one, buy a couple of $6 belts and ask for permission to use it. What a time saver for getting the rough part of the job done. Obviously, you have to be careful not to round the edges over, but at slow speed, with a flat platen, it's not that difficult to control.
Jeff
Member
Out of curiosity, which one? Did it come with the VFD or was that a retrofit? (asking because I don't know of any VFD-equipped grinders for the $1K that you cite. They're all $2500 and up AFAIK).
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