Thoughts on these mezanine supports?

[Mark Canada]

So my crowd funding campaign to get the new workshop and tools went up yesterday.. I smashed through the goal today which means I'm officially getting a nice workshop packed full of tools.

I had a look at two units today, one was a bit old and shabby - the other is pretty much perfect for what I want. It's a bit too big but gives me room to grow into it. The main floor is about 3600sqft (mixed office and workshop), with 2800sqft of mezzanine area (will be perfect for my spray booths, laser, finishing, stock storage).

My main concern is the amount of supports the mezzanine has - there's not a lot of gaps between them. I don't really work with sheet goods so I'm not too worried about how awkward it will be to move a 8x4 sheet around.

The spacing between the support columns is about 4m x 3m - or 12ft x 9ft (the gaps, not centre to centre). The previous tenant was selling bolts and fittings and such, so I'm guessing they had pallets of metal bits and bobs up there and needed a really high floor loading.

There's a spot I can fit an 5x10 or 8x4 cnc router if the campaign continues to do well (still waiting on a newsletter to 75,000 readers next week making mention of it) and I get the funds for a chinese ATC, its not ideal but it would give a clear run through from front to back if I did put sheets of stuff in, or full bed jigs.

Pictures of the mezzanine:
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Bay door to the left of photo. Stairs to the right. Big CNC would go next to the stairs in line with the bay door.

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The boxes on those pillars are the 3 phase - two already installed right where I'd put the compressor and dust collector room.

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From corner of the unit, through the doorway is the office.

It looks like it was a pretty expensive mezzanine to install, I'm hoping somewhere it might have some load ratings or I can see if it's possible to pull down the middle row of pillars?


Tools wise on the ground floor, i'll be looking at:
Table saw (duh)
Big drill press
Lathe (mostly for goofing off with)
16" bandsaw
mid sized compressor
smallish cyclone to start with, a friend wants to help me build a large one (video for his youtube channel)
jointer/thicknesser combo
89" belt sander
mitre saw which will need about 12ft on one side of it
router table

somebenches, probably down draft, for sanding and hand tools. I don't do a lot of work with hand tools - chisels are for removing double sided tape for me, i don't own hand planes, or nice saws, etc...

Any thoughts on how those tools would work with the mezzanine supports and spacing - is it a blessing or a curse? I figure it's going to be super handy for dropping dust collection, air lines, power etc.. but not sure how its going to be detrimental to workflow.

[Wayne Lomman]

Speaking from current daily experience working with mezzanine floors, I recommend against them for actual working area. Working up and down stairs is a mental barrier that the majority of workers don't cope with. They are OK when they are up there and OK when they are not, but moving goods and people from one level to the other is time consuming. We have every kind of handling equipment and access available and it hasn't helped. In the end we have made the assembly shop - which is on the mezzanine - fully self sufficient. It has its own parts store, welding bay, tool store etc. The fitters only need to come down at meal breaks. This uses about half the available mezzanine area. The rest has ended up a 'junk' store - the stuff is kind of necessary but you only need it once a year or so and if you didn't have it you wouldn't really notice.

This is not unique to my current factory. All previous ones have had similar issues and ended up not used at all as there was enough ground floor space. So in summary, it is really difficult to move personnel vertically from floor to floor and much easier to move them around on the same level. Also, working around the forest of supports will be restrictive. Either get an engineer to tell you how to do away with half of them or find another shop. Cheers

[Jim Becker]

Speaking as a distant observer, I have to agree with Wayne. An upper level is nice for parts storage, office use, smaller operations like your laser, etc., or even living quarters...but no way would I want to be carting heavy work up and down to there. At a minimum, there would need to be a very roomy freight elevator to even get me to think about that!! While I like the expanse of this space, the spacing and volume of the support columns would be maddening to me for so many woodworking purposes because of the constraint it may place on material handling and things like in-feed/outfeed. The issue I personally would have with this space is not that it has a mezzanine...which is a handy thing...but with the sheer size of the mezzanine. It's over 70% the same size as the main floor. That's probably not what you preferred to hear, but I really would have those concerns with this property.

[Bryan Lisowski]

Ask the landlord to see the as built plans for both the building that should include info about the mezzanine, if he doesn't know already. They may lead to the company that installed if specs aren't listed, and a call to them may get you the specs.

That is a lot of mezzanine, I would be most concerned about work flow with all the columns.

[John K Jordan]

It looks like it was a pretty expensive mezzanine to install, I'm hoping somewhere it might have some load ratings or I can see if it's possible to pull down the middle row of pillars?

You might hire a structural engineer to evaluate and advise. The last time I wanted one to size a beam and span I asked an architect friend for a referral. The cost was reasonable.

[Malcolm McLeod]

S... or I can see if it's possible to pull down the middle row of pillars?
...

Please don't pull down the middle row of pillars. I can clearly see a bolted joint in the beam. The deck won't hold a decent sized rat if you pull the column!

Either leave as-is and gets specs from blueprints/landlord, or follow Bryan's/John's advice and hire an engineer.

(I don't know your location or legal requirements, but I'd bet even removing a nut/bolt from the mezzanine will require permitting and inspection...?)

[Darcy Warner]

Crowd funding?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Crowd funding?

2018 "Crowd funding" = 1929 "Say brother, can you spare a dime?"

[Mark Canada]

Crowd funding: Glorified preorder system where everyone can see how many preorders you've taken haha.

I spoke to the people who own the building, they have no blueprints or specs. The previous tenants went out of business - always a sobering moment when you realise the place is only vacant because the previous company didnt make it (TOTALLY different industry though). They are willing to give us the keys and take whoever we want in there to look at it, or poke around ourselves and see if we can find any markings on it of who might have engineered it.

All the equipment will be downstairs, finished pieces will move upstairs for laser engraving then go into the spray booths. I'll likely setup hand sanding right next to the spray booths, as that will then be above the dust collector (or get a small dust collector just for hand sanding). Once they are up there, they'll stay up there until shipped. I totally agree with not moving pieces up and down! I had not thought of doing finish sanding upstairs, but it makes a *lot* of sense, thanks for the insight.

As far as modifying and building mezzanines - no planning permissions required, no permits required. Don't kill your employees overly much and you'll be fine. Massive over the top health and safety culture here, but some things seem to get totally ignored??


As to pulling the middle pillar, it wouldn't be done without seeing a structural engineer first. I was thinking more along the lines of putting a steel plate/brace across the current joint. Either welded, or bolted.


Current thoughts are we take the unit (working out the details with them now), its so much bigger than we need, so we can basically just have 3 lanes for the production steps of the products - lumber -> dimensioned wood, dimensioned wood -> cut to size, cut to size -> cnc machined, cnc machined -> hand added roundovers on a router table. Then upstairs for logo engraving and finish application.

If we get to the point of being annoyed by the posts, we get a structural engineer in and based on their input either:
* completely remove part of the mezzanine or
* Remove the centre row of posts

Its certainly scary taking on my first unit, moving country and moving out of the home shop in one step! Buying tools is going to be a lot of fun though.

[Jamie Buxton]

In my area, the word mezzanine sets off alarm bells about fire sprinklers. Building code and fire insurance require fire sprinklers. Around here, you must have sprinklers below mezzanine floors, and they're not cheap to install.

[Mark Canada]

Hmm, my reply seems to have not gone through.

I havent seen any sign of building regulations needing fire sprinklers anywhere here. The unit has no fire system - there are two "break to set off alarm" near exits, but that's all I've seen in this unit, and far more than anything else I've looked at or seen online. Based on the pipes I've seen at the buildings i've worked at with sprinklers, I don't even think the inbound water supply pipes would cope with sprinklers.

The mezzanine has an escape ladder in the back corner near one of the two rear fire doors, but thats it.

[Jamie Buxton]

Hmm, my reply seems to have not gone through.

I havent seen any sign of building regulations needing fire sprinklers anywhere here. The unit has no fire system - there are two "break to set off alarm" near exits, but that's all I've seen in this unit, and far more than anything else I've looked at or seen online. Based on the pipes I've seen at the buildings i've worked at with sprinklers, I don't even think the inbound water supply pipes would cope with sprinklers.

The mezzanine has an escape ladder in the back corner near one of the two rear fire doors, but thats it.

Things like building codes vary a great deal, so my experience might or might not apply. But I've tried renting shop space in a building, only to have the landlord tell me he would not rent to a wood shop because the building does not have sprinklers. It'd be disasterous to move in, and then find that somebody has to install those giant supply pipes.

[Martin Wasner]

Crowd funding?

I should start a crowd find account for a cnc. "Say brother, can you spare $150,000.00?"

[Mark Canada]

Things like building codes vary a great deal, so my experience might or might not apply. But I've tried renting shop space in a building, only to have the landlord tell me he would not rent to a wood shop because the building does not have sprinklers. It'd be disasterous to move in, and then find that somebody has to install those giant supply pipes.

Talking with some people today, fire sprinklers are not an issue here. If you want to change a wheel on a grinder though, you need to have a certification. Clearly they have their priorities straight???

The landlord is keen to rent to a woodworker, he doesn't want someone who strips cars in the place as he classes that as a messy/dirty business and clutters the carpark and such. Very specific example, I feel he has experience haha. He's fine with me poking holes in the roof or walls for laser exhaust too, which is nice, just needs to have a cover over it once we move out.

[Mark Canada]

I should start a crowd find account for a cnc. "Say brother, can you spare $150,000.00?"

Well, if you have product idea and a good marketing strategy that will sell the items to fund the cnc - why not? "Hand" crafted wood products are back in style! You can get a hell of a cnc router for 150k!