Anxious to try a new tip tool

[Bill Jobe]

I'm asking for opinions on the Kelton Multi-Axis Scraper. I'm open to alternative brands, as well
I just want to try one new tool to see how I like them and getting a smooth finish inside a bowl or vase is a big problem for me.
I have many, many odds and ends from estate auctions, HF and yard sales , as far as HSS turning tools and am slow at learning how to properly sharpen them, so....

I tried to edit the subject to read "new" instead of carbide but was unable to figure out how.

[John K Jordan]

I changed "carbide" to "new". I think when you edit you have to click on "Go Advanced" to edit the title.

JKJ

[Bill Jobe]

How about an opinion of the tool, John.

[John K Jordan]

How about an opinion of the tool, John.

I have no knowledge or experience with it. From the ad it looks a lot like the Sorby multi tip tools but with an unnecessary articulating head at a much higher cost - I have three Sorby tools that use similar curved scrapers (and hollowing tips) and use them often on the insides of things, especially for vase-like forms that I want glass smooth inside.

I can imagine the Kelton doing anything I can't do with the Sorby. Send me one and I'll test and compare.

For smoothing the inside of a bowl I haven't used anything better then these negative rake scrapers (except where i use hand scrapers):

scrapers_neg_rake.jpg

I use them without handles. I keep two "right handed" (concave surface to the right such as a normal bowl inside) and one "left handed". I ground them from two Thompson scrapers and a Thompson skew chisel. I saw Glenn Lucas use NRS sharpened like this.

JKJ

[Bill Jobe]

Thanks John. I have a couple of flat ended scrapers that I could grind down. I don't have much luck using them as is.
I bought them at an auction of a retiring wood craftsman and they were very well sharpened when I got them. But they always seem to want to grab. I thought perhaps I could grind them into the style you have or a "V" grind with the scraping edge in the center. They are .255" thick. Made by Craftsman.
Sound like a good idea?

[John K Jordan]

Thanks John. I have a couple of flat ended scrapers that I could grind down. I don't have much luck using them as is.
I bought them at an auction of a retiring wood craftsman and they were very well sharpened when I got them. But they always seem to want to grab. I thought perhaps I could grind them into the style you have or a "V" grind with the scraping edge in the center. They are .255" thick. Made by Craftsman.
Sound like a good idea?

Maybe grind one of the wide ones and see how you like it. It's very easy to get a catch with a "normal" scraper and the finish isn't all that great. It's very difficult to get a catch with a NRS like I showed, they are easy to use (hold flat on the rest, horizontal) and the finish can be far better. I seldom use shear scraping any more.

I used an 80 grit CBN wheel to shape mine - it takes a lot of grinding to sweep the side back that far. If your old tools are not HSS be careful about the heat at the grinder, of course.

I use a teardrop scraper on this tool for getting inside a vessel with a wide enough opening where someone could feel the inside:
https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p...Hollowing-Tool

JKJ

[Bill Jobe]

Well, I'll give it a try. They aren't being used in their current design.
Just water or do you add some water soluble coolant?

[Peter Blair]

Bill I'm not too sure this is what you are asking for but the easiest tool I have found for getting a smooth surface inside a hollow form is the D-Way hollowing scraper. Usually I hollow with a small cutter head leaving a less than ideal surface, I then scrape the inside with a 'tear drop' shaped scraper but lately I have found that Dave's scraper which is has a bigger radius than the high speed cutters and is thicker than my 'teardrop" scraper does a really good job if light finishing cuts are used.

[Bill Jobe]

I have no knowledge or experience with it. From the ad it looks a lot like the Sorby multi tip tools but with an unnecessary articulating head at a much higher cost - I have three Sorby tools that use similar curved scrapers (and hollowing tips) and use them often on the insides of things, especially for vase-like forms that I want glass smooth inside.

I can imagine the Kelton doing anything I can't do with the Sorby. Send me one and I'll test and compare.

For smoothing the inside of a bowl I haven't used anything better then these negative rake scrapers (except where i use hand scrapers):

scrapers_neg_rake.jpg

I use them without handles. I keep two "right handed" (concave surface to the right such as a normal bowl inside) and one "left handed". I ground them from two Thompson scrapers and a Thompson skew chisel. I saw Glenn Lucas use NRS sharpened like this.

JKJ

Well John, how did I do?
Not much of an edge on it yet. Wasn't sure how sharp you grind them.
I realize it ain't as pretty as yours but I just have a cheep HF grinder and did it freehand.
What I did do was try to get the curve as smooth as possible. And, I dipped it in water after every 2 or 3 seconds so I would not damage the hardness of the steel.

[John K Jordan]

Well John, how did I do?
Not much of an edge on it yet. Wasn't sure how sharp you grind them.
I realize it ain't as pretty as yours but I just have a cheep HF grinder and did it freehand.
What I did do was try to get the curve as smooth as possible. And, I dipped it in water after every 2 or 3 seconds so I would not damage the hardness of the steel.

The only thing that matters is how well it works.

I grind mine freehand sitting flat on a grinder tool platform rest. I ground a bevel on one side, the flipped the tool over and ground the other side to the same angle and the same bevel width, although that probably doesn't matter. This makes a negative rake scraper that can be used either "left-handed" or "right-handed", depending on which way I burnish the "burr" for use inside or outside or depending on the profile of the piece. (Raise the burr on the upper side by burnishing the underside.

I don't know the grinding angle but I can check the next time I get to the shop.

I raise the cutting burr not by grinding as most do but with a carbide burnishing rod. A HSS tool shaft will work too. The diameter of the shaft doesn't much matter. It doesn't take much pressure.

burnisher_IMG_6767.jpg

JKJ

[Bill Jobe]

Ok, so it ain't perfect. But it does a better job than anything else I have. Had to round back the righthand side so it would transition from bottom to side better.
All I can think of is that it needs to be sharper.
Not once did it even hint at grabbing, a problem I had with the tool in its original form.

[Bill Jobe]

I was typing when your post came in.

[Bill Jobe]

I see the problem.
No bevel on the bottom equals no burr.
Bet I look silly with what I made.
It will get the bottom bevel first thing tomorrow.
Amazing how well it cuts without it.
John, you pics gave me a distorted idea of how you grind yours. The 2 bigger tools look like they are flat on the bottom clear to the edge.

[Bill Jobe]

Do you think this hone would work in creating a burr?
If not the honing surface, will the edges of it make burrs?
It was a gift from a friend when he was getting me going on carving and it is diamond impregnated on the side used to sharpen my knife. The remainder of the piece is smooth.
Would either surfaces create a good burr?

[John K Jordan]

John, you pics gave me a distorted idea of how you grind yours. The 2 bigger tools look like they are flat on the bottom clear to the edge.

The bottom bevel shouldn't matter much. I haven't tried one ground like that but you could probably just burnish a bevel on your existing grind and it should work fine. In fact it may work better than what I use. I sometimes use spindle gouges upside down for fine scraping in coves - similar in cross section to your scraper grind.
scraper_gouge3.jpg

All three of these are ground the same way. The differences are one is ground from a skew chisel and one is wider than the others.
scrapers_neg_rake.jpg


The bottom bevel does not have to match the top bevel. The wood doesn't care. However, it does let me use the tool identically when flipped over and a new burr applied. I make other negative rake scrapers with a large and large angle bevel on the bottom and a small but sharper angle bevel on the top. Here are some very small ones made this way - they give a glass-smooth surface on end grain in good wood:

scrapers_small_thompson.jpg

Do you think this hone would work in creating a burr?
If not the honing surface, will the edges of it make burrs?

There are several ways I know and have used to make a burr.

• One way is to grinding on the bottom bevel last. This will deform and curl up a ragged burr which will cut very well for a short time. The size of the burr depends somewhat on the grit and pressure used in that final grind. You can easily feel the size of the burr with your finger. Many people use this method and replenish the burr often, sometimes after just one or two scrapes. If you look at the burr under a microscope you might see why - the burr looks like a jagged mountain range and it's easy to imagine the peaks wearing off quickly.
  
• Another way is to use a ceramic or diamond hone and hone the bottom bevel/edge, usually not flat on the bevel but at an angle. This will raise a burr the same way but it will be much the same as the grinder burr except smaller. This is a good way to raise small burr for a very fine and delicate scrape. It also doesn't last long.
  
• The third way is to use a burnisher. You hold the burnisher so it is not flat against the bottom bevel but forms an angle with the the bottom bevel. Apply some pressure and slide the burnisher along the entire scraping edge. The amount of angle, the diameter of the burnishing rod, and the amount of pressure determine the size an shape of the burr. The metal is actually deformed at the edge and curled upwards. If you look at it under the microscope the burnished burr might look like a smooth, polished cutting edge instead a ragged row of teeth. A burnished burr can be very gentle or quite aggressive. It can even be curled too much and won't even cut without holding the tool at a downward angle instead of horizontal as you would otherwise.

It is my experience that a burnished burr can last a lot longer than a burr from the grinder. I will typically grind the scraper, use a diamond or ceramic hone flat on the bevel to remove any grinder burr, then polish the edge by stropping on leather or some polishing compound spread on a piece of mdf or wood. After the edge is polished I raise the burr with the burnisher. When that burr wears away, I may re-hone, polish, and burnish several times before going back to the grinder.

Burnishing the cutting edge is the way hand and cabinet scrapers have been prepared for ages. I use the carbide burnisher on scrapers such as these, prepared and sharpened the traditional way used by cabinet and instrument makers:

scrapers_.jpg


Besides the hand burnisher I showed, Veritas also makes a scraper burnisher you fasten to the workbench. I used to use this on large scrapers. With this it is easy to put too much burr on large scrapers and make them way too aggressive.

burnisher-veritas.jpg

As mentioned, you can burnish with a carbide rod, a HSS steel rod (even the shaft of a tool) or almost any piece of steel in a pinch. The smooth end of an old HSS steel drill bit is perfect, especially if it is hardened all the way to the end (some are not). It helps if the burnisher is the same hardness or harder than the burnished tool so I prefer to use carbide. You need less pressure with a smaller diameter rod but a larger rod works fine - I have a larger carbide burnisher and used it for everything for years.

(sorry, in a big rush this morning - no time to proofread this, hope it's not too bad)

JKJ