I Like Old Tools

[ken hatch]

I just don't like rehabbing "em. My love of old tools as MsBubba would tell you ain't because I'm cheap nor is it because of some hippy dippy notion of connection to the past. It is simply the fact a good tool from the late 19th to early 20th Century will usually work better than its new replacement. That is not always the case but in general it is a good rule.


If you have ever spent any time looking at Russian aircraft you will see many copies of Western aircraft. Usually poorly executed copies, like the designer saw the Western aircraft several years before he/she put pencil to paper but close enough you can recognize the lineage of the design. I think many modern tools suffer from the same fault. The manufacture makes a tool that looks like one of the old ones and usually makes 'em "better" but missed some of the details that make using the tool a pleasure.


It's not that modern tools are poorly made because most are beautiful works of art but, there that damn but, they miss some of the important details. LN planes are a perfect example if compared to a early 20th Century Bailey pattern plane. The Bailey plane was light so you could use it all day with out tiring. The irons were thin, made of good HC steel and had a good balance between edge retention and ease of sharpening on any available stone. The chip breaker is much better for controlling tear-out than any of the modern back irons. The need for a moveable frog while the iron is in place is selling the sizzle instead of the steak. I'm not picking on LN, they make beautiful planes but I believe they missed the mark in making a working tool. Full disclosure, I own most of the LN planes, all sit gathering dust.


Chisel are the same story, come on, a paring chisel made of A2 steel? You have to be kidding. For that matter any chisel made of A2 is less useful than one made of HC steel and hammer forged. For a hammer forged chisel, for the most part, you have to go back to pre-war chisels or .Japanese chisels. I will not go into balance and feel but hold a pre-war Marples chisel and then hold almost any modern chisel and you will understand.


Joinery planes such as plow, fillester, or rabbet are much the same. The old wood stock ones, if you can find or fix, just work better.


OK enough for now....I'm back on my meds.


ken

[Derek Cohen]

I think that you do need to go back on your meds, Ken

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Todd Stock]

Great to see the Stanley aluminum bench planes get the recognition they deserve as the penultimate development of that company's bench planes...even the frail or physically compromised can do a full day throwing an 2-1/2 lb A5 around the bench, and a little hard anodizing addresses any oxidation streaks (plus puts a nice polish on anigre). Pure awesomeness for anyone that pays for a gym membership, but spends 20 minutes waiting for a parking space 30 feet closer to the grocery store. ;-)

[ken hatch]

I think that you do need to go back on your meds, Ken

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

I hate to admit but you may be right

ken

[Bill McDermott]

I like old tools because of the hippy dippy connection to the past. Really.
I also like new, premium quality tools.
Excepting junk, I like all manner of tools.
They allow us to make things - which is something I like even more than tools.

In my personal (and limited experience), it's not a matter of old / new. It is a matter of useful / not useful. Or maybe quality / junk.

In any case, certain tools should not be used while on certain meds. Consult your virtual Neanderthal psychologist.

[Bob Glenn]

I like old tools because of the hippy dippy connection to the past. Really.
I also like new, premium quality tools.
Excepting junk, I like all manner of tools.
They allow us to make things - which is something I like even more than tools.

In my personal (and limited experience), it's not a matter of old / new. It is a matter of useful / not useful. Or maybe quality / junk.

In any case, certain tools should not be used while on certain meds. Consult your virtual Neanderthal psychologist.

Bill, at least with hand tools, it takes longer to hurt yourself badly!

[Jerry Olexa]

Well said, Ken...I agree.

[ken hatch]

Well said, Ken...I agree.

Thanks Jerry

ken

[Stew Denton]

Ken,

Nice comments, and well said! You said it for a lot of us. I like the old CS irons too, and like the balance between quick sharpening time and edge life.

I like old tools because because my experience with them has been good, as opposed to many of the newer tools over the years. That said, I have not used any of the premium new hand tools.

I think history is on your side as well, because late in the 19th century and early in the 20th century there were not hand held power tools, but there was a long history of folks using hand tools.

Makers such as Stanley, Disston, Millers Falls, etc., knew they had to make good tools to be able to continue to sell them, they knew their customers, and many of the folks at those companies not only made tools, but they also used them. Since there were so many customers that knew "light weight" is good, some of whom had used light weight wooden planes, companies like Stanley were not going to make heavy planes that wore out the guy that had to use one all day. If they made heavy planes like that, it would be the last one the guy would buy, and he would recommend some other company to his apprentice and friends.

I think that the new premium makers make great tools, but we have lost that decades of experience, both by the user and by the maker, that taught the companies how to make tools that were at the peak of design excellence.

By the dates you mention, the makers had improved their tools and materials to the point of excellence during that time period. Then came the depression, and tool makers had to find ways to still build good tools but make the price a bit lower so people could afford to buy them in a time where money was very tight.

Then the war started, and with it world wide destruction of housing and industry, and there was such a huge demand for tools to rebuild that the tool companies could sell just about any reasonable tool that they could make because their competition in foreign countries had been destroyed. Quality went down a bit, but the companies still made fairly decent tools. However, the nice features like very comfortable handles on saws, rosewood totes on planes, etc. were lost.

Then came the 60s, and "the new management" philosophy took over, and the managers of the companies were bean counters and MBAs, not woodworkers, and their plan was to figure out how to make the tools as cheap as possible to build, to maximize profits at the expense of quality. They hired engineers to design things in exactly that way. Few to none of them, executives, engineers, accountants, etc., were woodworkers with a long history of experience with wood working hand tools, and the ones who had such experience were overruled by the "quick profit" guys.

This is not to say that some tools were not suitable for woodworking. I have some Stanley carpentry tools from that time period that were very usable. My Stanley chisels are still with me, and I couldn't afford the better chisels, so bought the handy man grade. I beat the tar out of them with my carpenters hammer, and they stood up to that, but they didn't have the nice feel or balance of the Stanley 750s, the feel and balance that makes guys like Christopher Schwarz talk about for chisels for cutting dovetails. On the other hand, you couldn't give me on of the Stanley bench planes of that time frame if I had to use it. (I hear that the block plane guys didn't get the message from management, and continued to make pretty decent planes.)

Finally we are starting to see really good hand tools again, and I say "wonderful," and think that the new premium makers will continue to improve them. Hopefully they will find the wonderful "user friendliness" the old ones have to go along with the good design, quality materials, quality machining, and love of quality that they now have.

Yes, I think you hit the nail right on the head!

That said, the idea of using 100 year old tools has a strong appeal and seems really neat too, and especially ones that belonged to my father and grandfather. Yes I know, a feeling related deal....not just a cold hard evaluation of how the tools work. I guess that is "hippy dippy" thinking.

Stew

[Gary Cunningham]

<sir mix-a-lot>I like old tools, and I cannot lie.

New crappy stuff just don't work for this guy. <smal>

[Frederick Skelly]

Good post Ken!

[Patrick Chase]

<sir mix-a-lot>I like old tools, and I cannot lie.

New crappy stuff just don't work for this guy. <smal>

"Baby got rust"

[Jim Koepke]

My reason for old tools was because of them being less expensive than new tools at the time they were acquired. Most of them are pretty decent survivors.

Some of my old planes may look like they have been through the ringer, but they still do their job.

jtk

[Stew Denton]

Hi Jim,

Good point, I didn't think about that when I read Ken's initial post and replied to it, but that is a main reason why I buy them too. I have to work on almost all of the tools I buy though, to restore them to good condition.

That said, the latest I have restored was a 10" back saw I wanted for learning to cut dovetails. It is a Jackson (Disston variety) made in the 1880s or 1890s I think, from my study of the net. It was about $35 delivered, and I think it is going to be a very good saw. (I still need to retooth and sharpen it, but the rest of the work on it is done.) I had to spend way too much time restoring it, and should have spent a little more to start with.

Is $35 going to buy a good new steel back back saw now....I don't think so. Same story with my planes and chisels. Old and used costs a fraction of what good new costs. Even now when it seems like the price of vintage tools is way up from what they were a few years ago, but they are still radically less expensive than new tools of similar quality.

Again, very good point.

Regards,

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

Good point, I didn't think about that when I read Ken's initial post and replied to it, but that is a main reason why I buy them too. I have to work on almost all of the tools I buy though, to restore them to good condition.

If one has more time than money, restoring tools helps to fill one's tool chest.

If one has more money than time, buying new helps to save more time for using the tools.

My guess is someone who takes the time to restore old tools tends to learn more about using them than one who merely takes them out of a box before using them.

jtk