I Like Old Tools

[ken hatch]

If one has more time than money, restoring tools helps to fill one's tool chest.

If one has more money than time, buying new helps to save more time for using the tools.

My guess is someone who takes the time to restore old tools tends to learn more about using them than one who merely takes them out of a box before using them.

jtk

Jim,

That is how I ended up with a till full of LN and LV dust collectors. All are beautifully made but when it comes time to do some work I'll reach for one of the type 13 or earlier Stanley's. My favorite "type" are the 9's, low knob and everything a plane needs and nothing it doesn't.

ken

[ken hatch]

Ken,

Nice comments, and well said! You said it for a lot of us. I like the old CS irons too, and like the balance between quick sharpening time and edge life.

I like old tools because because my experience with them has been good, as opposed to many of the newer tools over the years. That said, I have not used any of the premium new hand tools.

I think history is on your side as well, because late in the 19th century and early in the 20th century there were not hand held power tools, but there was a long history of folks using hand tools.

Makers such as Stanley, Disston, Millers Falls, etc., knew they had to make good tools to be able to continue to sell them, they knew their customers, and many of the folks at those companies not only made tools, but they also used them. Since there were so many customers that knew "light weight" is good, some of whom had used light weight wooden planes, companies like Stanley were not going to make heavy planes that wore out the guy that had to use one all day. If they made heavy planes like that, it would be the last one the guy would buy, and he would recommend some other company to his apprentice and friends.

I think that the new premium makers make great tools, but we have lost that decades of experience, both by the user and by the maker, that taught the companies how to make tools that were at the peak of design excellence.

By the dates you mention, the makers had improved their tools and materials to the point of excellence during that time period. Then came the depression, and tool makers had to find ways to still build good tools but make the price a bit lower so people could afford to buy them in a time where money was very tight.

Then the war started, and with it world wide destruction of housing and industry, and there was such a huge demand for tools to rebuild that the tool companies could sell just about any reasonable tool that they could make because their competition in foreign countries had been destroyed. Quality went down a bit, but the companies still made fairly decent tools. However, the nice features like very comfortable handles on saws, rosewood totes on planes, etc. were lost.

Then came the 60s, and "the new management" philosophy took over, and the managers of the companies were bean counters and MBAs, not woodworkers, and their plan was to figure out how to make the tools as cheap as possible to build, to maximize profits at the expense of quality. They hired engineers to design things in exactly that way. Few to none of them, executives, engineers, accountants, etc., were woodworkers with a long history of experience with wood working hand tools, and the ones who had such experience were overruled by the "quick profit" guys.

This is not to say that some tools were not suitable for woodworking. I have some Stanley carpentry tools from that time period that were very usable. My Stanley chisels are still with me, and I couldn't afford the better chisels, so bought the handy man grade. I beat the tar out of them with my carpenters hammer, and they stood up to that, but they didn't have the nice feel or balance of the Stanley 750s, the feel and balance that makes guys like Christopher Schwarz talk about for chisels for cutting dovetails. On the other hand, you couldn't give me on of the Stanley bench planes of that time frame if I had to use it. (I hear that the block plane guys didn't get the message from management, and continued to make pretty decent planes.)

Finally we are starting to see really good hand tools again, and I say "wonderful," and think that the new premium makers will continue to improve them. Hopefully they will find the wonderful "user friendliness" the old ones have to go along with the good design, quality materials, quality machining, and love of quality that they now have.

Yes, I think you hit the nail right on the head!

That said, the idea of using 100 year old tools has a strong appeal and seems really neat too, and especially ones that belonged to my father and grandfather. Yes I know, a feeling related deal....not just a cold hard evaluation of how the tools work. I guess that is "hippy dippy" thinking.

Stew

Stew,

Thanks, good points.

ken

[ken hatch]

Good post Ken!

Thanks Frederick,

Being older than dirt, sleep comes hard and MsBubba will fuss if I start chopping mortises too early in the AM. Many times and yesterday morning was one of them, I will have my second or third cup of coffee sitting on the shop stool enjoying my tools. Sometimes I'll pick one up and maybe sharpen the iron if needed. Yesterday's post was the result of that early morning coffee.

BTW, I'll make coffee in a couple and I expect I'll be on the shop stool soon. I'll have the mortises for the kitchen cart's shelf to mark out but it will be several hours before I can chop those suckers.

ken

[Frederick Skelly]

I think I get it. It's not unusual for me to grab a cup and do something similar. (Not quite as early as you, though. ) It's just a pleasant, comfortable place to kick back and think. Take a few passes with a couple different planes, look over the new Highland catalog or read something I bought from Lost Arts Press.

Have a good one Ken!
Fred

[bill howes]

Ken,

Nice comments, and well said! You said it for a lot of us. I like the old CS irons too, and like the balance between quick sharpening time and edge life.

I like old tools because because my experience with them has been good, as opposed to many of the newer tools over the years. That said, I have not used any of the premium new hand tools.

I think history is on your side as well, because late in the 19th century and early in the 20th century there were not hand held power tools, but there was a long history of folks using hand tools.

Makers such as Stanley, Disston, Millers Falls, etc., knew they had to make good tools to be able to continue to sell them, they knew their customers, and many of the folks at those companies not only made tools, but they also used them. Since there were so many customers that knew "light weight" is good, some of whom had used light weight wooden planes, companies like Stanley were not going to make heavy planes that wore out the guy that had to use one all day. If they made heavy planes like that, it would be the last one the guy would buy, and he would recommend some other company to his apprentice and friends.

I think that the new premium makers make great tools, but we have lost that decades of experience, both by the user and by the maker, that taught the companies how to make tools that were at the peak of design excellence.

By the dates you mention, the makers had improved their tools and materials to the point of excellence during that time period. Then came the depression, and tool makers had to find ways to still build good tools but make the price a bit lower so people could afford to buy them in a time where money was very tight.

Then the war started, and with it world wide destruction of housing and industry, and there was such a huge demand for tools to rebuild that the tool companies could sell just about any reasonable tool that they could make because their competition in foreign countries had been destroyed. Quality went down a bit, but the companies still made fairly decent tools. However, the nice features like very comfortable handles on saws, rosewood totes on planes, etc. were lost.

Then came the 60s, and "the new management" philosophy took over, and the managers of the companies were bean counters and MBAs, not woodworkers, and their plan was to figure out how to make the tools as cheap as possible to build, to maximize profits at the expense of quality. They hired engineers to design things in exactly that way. Few to none of them, executives, engineers, accountants, etc., were woodworkers with a long history of experience with wood working hand tools, and the ones who had such experience were overruled by the "quick profit" guys.

This is not to say that some tools were not suitable for woodworking. I have some Stanley carpentry tools from that time period that were very usable. My Stanley chisels are still with me, and I couldn't afford the better chisels, so bought the handy man grade. I beat the tar out of them with my carpenters hammer, and they stood up to that, but they didn't have the nice feel or balance of the Stanley 750s, the feel and balance that makes guys like Christopher Schwarz talk about for chisels for cutting dovetails. On the other hand, you couldn't give me on of the Stanley bench planes of that time frame if I had to use it. (I hear that the block plane guys didn't get the message from management, and continued to make pretty decent planes.)

Finally we are starting to see really good hand tools again, and I say "wonderful," and think that the new premium makers will continue to improve them. Hopefully they will find the wonderful "user friendliness" the old ones have to go along with the good design, quality materials, quality machining, and love of quality that they now have.

Yes, I think you hit the nail right on the head!

That said, the idea of using 100 year old tools has a strong appeal and seems really neat too, and especially ones that belonged to my father and grandfather. Yes I know, a feeling related deal....not just a cold hard evaluation of how the tools work. I guess that is "hippy dippy" thinking.

Stew

Stew, perhaps its unfair to put the blame entirely on the bean counters.

There are more than enough well made tools from the pre WW2 era still in circulation for the shrinking number of knowledgeable consumers who want non-disposable hand tools and hence the market for well made tools is too small to support tool makers on a large scale.

Perhaps the blame is on the original toolmakers for making too enduring a product. Many modern producers ( excluding of course LV and LN and a handful of craftpersons) are remedying that.

I too love the old tools, many of which I inherited. I look after them and hope most will be passed on to a grandson who I am attempting to instill with a love of well made tools.

Bill

[Philipp Jaindl]

I like Old tools for their History and simple efficiency for lack of a better term, also a big fan of CS blades.

That said i do envy you guys from the States or the UK, here in Austria the vast majority of tools were made from Wood Handplanes, Framesaws etc and are by this point often just rotten, twisted or the insects got them and i havent really come across any chisels really worth restoring yet.
Where as you folks across the Pond have all those nice Metal Planes, Chisels and Handsaws, granted for the latter i do prefer the Framesaw, still i really love the Stanley planes with their easy adjustments compared to Wooden planes shame they are almost impossible to get here and importing from the UK or US is very expensive.
Oh well enough rambling.

[Mike Holbrook]

I think some of you people may have just gotten old and learned to relate better to other old things. Maybe when I get old I will feel the same.

[Jerry Olexa]

If one has more time than money, restoring tools helps to fill one's tool chest.

If one has more money than time, buying new helps to save more time for using the tools.

My guess is someone who takes the time to restore old tools tends to learn more about using them than one who merely takes them out of a box before using them.

jtk

VERY well said, Jim!!!!!!

[Jerry Olexa]

I think some of you people may have just gotten old and learned to relate better to other old things. Maybe when I get old I will feel the same.

HA!!! Funny but true

[John C Cox]

I have had nothing but bad luck with old tools.. Especially chisels... And it's not for lack of trying....

So... If any of you guys are willing to have compassion on a fellow woodworker who wants some GOOD old chisels that have already been verified for good steel properly hardened - shoot me a PM.. I can put new handles on...

[ken hatch]

I have had nothing but bad luck with old tools.. Especially chisels... And it's not for lack of trying....

So... If any of you guys are willing to have compassion on a fellow woodworker who wants some GOOD old chisels that have already been verified for good steel properly hardened - shoot me a PM.. I can put new handles on...

John,

The eBay burn rate can be quite high even when you know what you are looking for. Pick a brand, do a little research so you can (maybe) identity the time of manufacture. Stick with that brand and time period if there was a change in process and there almost always is. An example, for Stanley planes I like Bailey pattern type 9 to type 13. The type 9 is the start of "modern" planes and after type 13 the quality starts going down. Can you find good planes outside that range, sure but there will be more frogs than princess so why bother. I collect for use and pleasure pre 1933 Marple chisels. The chisels made after 1933 are not hammer forged, I think hammer forging makes a better chisel so I will not buy a post 1933 Marple chisel. Back saws are back saws, LV's are so cheap why bother with rust. Marking gauges and knifes are also cheap, just buy new. Squares, spend the money. Wood stock planes either bench or joinery have a very high burn rate which is a shame because a good one is wonderful to have, a not very good one's best use is firewood.

I hope this helps,

ken

[Patrick Chase]

I have had nothing but bad luck with old tools.. Especially chisels... And it's not for lack of trying....

So... If any of you guys are willing to have compassion on a fellow woodworker who wants some GOOD old chisels that have already been verified for good steel properly hardened - shoot me a PM.. I can put new handles on...

Stunning though this may seem, there exist a group of people whose profession is to provide old tools in known-good or at least known condition. They're called "tool dealers". A couple of them (most notably Pete Taran, who specializes in saws) even frequent this forum.

You'll pay more to get old tools from a dealer than by rust-hunting or trawling eBay for "bargains", but IMO the reduced hassle is more than worth the cost.

[Phil Mueller]

I agree Patrick. I will occasionally find a gem in an estate or garage sale, flee market, etc. But sometimes even then, when bringing it home, find I didn’t notice some issue with it at time of purchase. So when I really need (want) a specific vintage tool, I’ll go to Patrick Leach, or Hyperkitten, or similar source. With these folks, you know if it’s complete and it will come with an honest assesment of condition. Doesn’t mean there won’t be some clean up/set up needed, but generally worth the extra $ IMHO.

[Todd Stock]

I think some of you people may have just gotten old and learned to relate better to other old things. Maybe when I get old I will feel the same.

Old for old's sake? Think you nailed it, just as there are the 'new for new's sake' folks.

[John C Cox]

There are exceptionally good hand tools available now.... At least as good as the best of the past.... But - they are coming out of "boutique" makers at a premium price.... Honestly, truth be told - they always did.... Mathieson wasn't a high volume shop.. I bet neither was Witherby (at least until after WWII)..

As to why they went away?
It wasn't the bean counters - it was the carpenters, cabinet makers, and furniture makers...
2 words:
Power Tools....

Jointers no longer use sash mortise chisels and paring chisels to make window frames - they use large automated routers and saws.. No doubt they own a chisel or 2 for some clean up work... And just because....

Mills no longer manually plane and carve details into trim - it's all done on big router units....

It's the same with high quality hand saws... The Skil saw was the death knell of the Diston panel saw....

And electric sanders were more or less the end of scraper planes....

It's the same in many other trades. I visited an old, well known Luthier a month ago.... His main chisel was an old Witherby paring chisel... He "inherited" it from his master when the man retired... And that man "inherited" it from his master when he retired.. And it was perhaps 1" shorter than new... So 3 professionals used the same chisel for the bulk of their work careers - and didn't use it up... But then honestly - Luthiers don't really beat up chisels like a Jointer bashing out window mortises would...