Japanese chisels

[brian zawatsky]

I'm seriously looking for a good quality set of chisels for a reasonable price. I don't want anything made from A2. I currently have a small set of the new Stanley 750's which are some sort of high carbon steel; these take a super sharp edge but don't hold it for too long. They sharpen quickly and easily so the lack of edge retention isn't too awful. My real beef with these is the side bevels - they're just a little too thick for my liking.

This brings me to Japanese chisels (Nomi?). I've read excellent things about white steel, although I don't know much about the difference between it and good old O1 or A2. I'm leaning towards a dovetail style back (Shogi I think) with full-width bevels for tight corner clearance, and a handle that would allow some light mallet work if necessary. I'd love to buy top of the line chisels hand-forged by a master, but my pockets are not quite deep enough at present. Dont want to buy a cheap knock-off, and my ignorance on the matter makes me a sweet target for the less than reputable sellers out there.

Would you guys with experience in this area mind sharing to educate someone who's never even held one?

[Derek Cohen]

Brian

Look into Koyamaichi. Both Tools from Japan and Lee Valley sell them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Hazelwood]

Pretty much any of the typical Japanese steels (white #1/2, blue #1/2, etc.) are excellent in all the various tools and knives I have. They hold a very fine edge for a long time. Most of my tools are white #2, and are easy to sharpen (even on oilstones).

The standard oire-nomi is meant primarily for chopping work, and tend to be shorter than western chisels (more like butt chisels). This makes them handy for chopping work, obviously, but some find them uncomfortable for paring- there is a big hoop on the end of the handle. I don't find it to be a big problem, and so I use these for most tasks.

Standard oire-nomi, even if bevel edge, usually have pretty thick side lands. You can get shinogi-style with the triangular profile, but some of these still have side lands. The Koyama-ichi "dovetail" chisels that LV sells are closer to what I think you are asking for, but the two that I bought needed a little bit of grinding to bring the lands to a zero edge. Not sure how typical that is. These are nice to have for chopping sockets for skinny pins, but you really only need two or three sizes for that. The downside of the shinogi profile is that it is more difficult to sharpen without laying back the bevel angle, because there is not much material at the base of the bevel. Especially true for the small sizes.

I think Stu (Tools from Japan) can have chisels made with a trapezoidal profile, instead of triangular, that still comes down to zero at the lands but has more meat at the top. I think this would be the ideal shape if you want minimal or no lands on your bench chisels.

As far as makers go, I have experience with Koyamaichi and Kikuhiromaru and both are very good in terms of steel quality, and value for money. The level of finish refinement for these will not be up to LN or Veritas standards (more hand-made vs. machined perfection) and you will have to spend some time fettling them, fitting hoops, flattening the back, etc. However I have been impressed enough with the tools' performance that I don't mind the extra work.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm very happy with Kikuhiromaru in white 1, I have both their new stock and a set of their old stock.

Top on my list for relatively inexpensive chisels would be Stan Covington's maker, he's sourced me a few chisels from that maker and they're really awesome in terms of the steel. One of them is a mortise chisel and it does not chip, I've used mortise chisels twice as expensive that do not hold an edge as well.

Relatively inexpensive for Japanese chisels starts at $65-$80/chisel and top of the line are usually $170-$350. Bench chisels are usually on the low end of that range, long paring chisels on the higher end.

Japanese makers do make paring chisels which are intended for paring use and without hoops.

Truly the most important part of these tools is setup and sharpening.

[Patrick Chase]

Hitachi "White" steel is an ultra-pure high carbon steel. The biggest difference between it and, say, 1095 or W1 is that it has lower allowed levels of contaminants like Sulfur and Phosphorus, and that in turn allows it to have lower levels of compensating alloyants like Mn (which is present in basically all steels to bind Sulfur). It's good stuff.

Blue is similar to white, but with relatively low levels (less than A2) of Tungsten and Chromium added to boost wear resistance (and a small amount of Vanadium in the case of "Super Blue"). You wouldn't be too far off to think of it as a middle ground between HCS and A2.

[John C Cox]

Have you considered grinding/honing the side bevels on your Stanley's down... Try it on 1 chisel and see how you like it.... You really only need to do the last 1" or 1 1/2"... If you like the chisels otherwise - it may be a cost effective solution... Personally - I found I don't really like sharp side bevels.. Too many sliced fingers... But it's probably worthwhile if you are primarily doing dovetails.

Another solution is to try out a Veritas, Blue Spruce, or Lie Nielsen chisel...

There aren't many Japanese chisels with sharp side bevels.... Its not really traditional... But a few makers have started making them for the American market......

Just remember that Japanese sharpening comes along with Japanese chisels... Many of these chisels really don't sharpen right on western stones - especially diamond plates or sandpaper... The super hard edges tend to come off western stones chipped.. If you don't already own water stones - you will be buying some....

Thanks

I'm seriously looking for a good quality set of chisels for a reasonable price. I don't want anything made from A2. I currently have a small set of the new Stanley 750's which are some sort of high carbon steel; these take a super sharp edge but don't hold it for too long. They sharpen quickly and easily so the lack of edge retention isn't too awful. My real beef with these is the side bevels - they're just a little too thick for my liking.

This brings me to Japanese chisels (Nomi?). I've read excellent things about white steel, although I don't know much about the difference between it and good old O1 or A2. I'm leaning towards a dovetail style back (Shogi I think) with full-width bevels for tight corner clearance, and a handle that would allow some light mallet work if necessary. I'd love to buy top of the line chisels hand-forged by a master, but my pockets are not quite deep enough at present. Dont want to buy a cheap knock-off, and my ignorance on the matter makes me a sweet target for the less than reputable sellers out there.

Would you guys with experience in this area mind sharing to educate someone who's never even held one?

[Patrick Chase]

Just remember that Japanese sharpening comes along with Japanese chisels... Many of these chisels really don't sharpen right on western stones - especially diamond plates or sandpaper... The super hard edges tend to come off western stones chipped.. If you don't already own water stones - you will be buying some....

I'll probably get flamed by purists for this, but that simply isn't my experience and doesn't comport with physical reality. Silicate is silicate, alumina is alumina. There is nothing magical about Japanese honing media. My white chisels hone perfectly well on Arks, Indias and Spyderco alumina-ceramics.

What you probably don't want to do is use any motorized grinder that's faster than a Tormek. HCS at Rc65 starts to lose hardness above 200F, so it doesn't take much heating to ruin your whole day.

[Stanley Covington]

I'm seriously looking for a good quality set of chisels for a reasonable price. I don't want anything made from A2. I currently have a small set of the new Stanley 750's which are some sort of high carbon steel; these take a super sharp edge but don't hold it for too long. They sharpen quickly and easily so the lack of edge retention isn't too awful. My real beef with these is the side bevels - they're just a little too thick for my liking.

This brings me to Japanese chisels (Nomi?). I've read excellent things about white steel, although I don't know much about the difference between it and good old O1 or A2. I'm leaning towards a dovetail style back (Shogi I think) with full-width bevels for tight corner clearance, and a handle that would allow some light mallet work if necessary. I'd love to buy top of the line chisels hand-forged by a master, but my pockets are not quite deep enough at present. Dont want to buy a cheap knock-off, and my ignorance on the matter makes me a sweet target for the less than reputable sellers out there.

Would you guys with experience in this area mind sharing to educate someone who's never even held one?

Brian:

A lot of guys on this forum have experience with Japanese chisels, and their advice won't lead you astray. Here are some of my opinions based on owning and using hundreds of Japanese chisels, both professionally and as a hobbyist, and many years of face-to-face discussions in Japanese with the craftsmen that make them.

Steel: The quality of the steel is important to the same degree as you are able to sharpen and maintain that steel, and can appreciate the sharpness and durability of that steel in practical use. Most people are happy with standard factory steel, and the HQ high-carbon steel used in the better Japanese chisels holds no attraction for them. Nothing wrong with that.

As Patrick wrote, White Paper steel is simply plain high-carbon steel, but it has fewer impurities such as sulfer, phosphorus, and silica than 02. These impurities prevent the steel from forming the best possible crystalline structure, or form weaknesses in it. The harder the steel is hardened, the more pronounced these problems become. The problem with plain HC steel is that it is tempermental when being heat treated and tends to crack and warp, creating more rejects and decreasing productivity. It requires a lot of experience and skill to use. It is not at all suited to mass production.

Blue Paper steel is White Paper steel with chemicals added, not so much to increase abrasion resistance (although that is a side-effect), but to improve the heat treatment characteristics and productivity. The additives make the safe temperature range for quenching and tempering much wider, and reduces cracking and warpage a lot. This makes it easier for the blacksmith to deliver better average quality, with less effort, less skill, and fewer rejects. Blacksmiths do not like to tell you this, but justify the higher cost of Blue Paper steel by selling the secondary abrasion-resistant properties. However, Blue Paper steel does not sharpen as easily or pleasantly as White Paper steel. That said, most people can't tell the difference. Like White Paper steel, Blue Paper steel is not suited to mass production by Chinese peasants.

Plain high-carbon steel is not used in mass-producing thin products like chisels and plane blades for these reasons. There are plenty of steels nowadays that are less finicky and require little skill to produce decent blades. A2 is one such steel.

A good chisel need not be costly. It depends on what you expect of the chisel. Like expensive watches, the case, band and glass cost 80% of the production cost, and the precision movement is 5%. But it is the pretty case, glass, band, decorative treatments, and the perceived value, combined with name brand that turns a timepiece into luxury jewelry that costs $10,000. Likewise, if you intend to admire your chisels, and show them to your friends and clients, and need them to make a statement about your taste, perhaps the expensive, decorative chisels sold by the wholesalers that specialize in hype are what you need. Tasai's products are an excellent example. Absolutely beautiful work, but they don't cut well.

On the other hand, there are still blacksmiths in Japan, most are in their 70's and 80's now, that learned blacksmithing before they finished middle school, and that spent their entire careers working in dark, dirty shacks in front of pre-war spring hammers and charcoal forges. These old boys don't seek wealth or fame, they just want to make good chisels and satisfy their customers. They have made all the mistakes, and know how to hand-forge good chisels in limited quantities. Working White Paper steel is not rocket science, and there is no reason a chisel made from it should be expensive.

After the blade is forged, a lot of time can be spent shaping the chisel by hand with files. Like the flashy band and case and crystal of an expensive watch, this shaping and polishing process adds greatly to the production costs, and the markup. If you want a simple chisel with a high-quality blade that becomes very sharp, holds an edge a long time, and is easy to sharpen, but can get by one shaped quickly by grinders and belts, then there are inexpensive hype-free products available.

Shinogi aka Umeki oirenomi are difficult. The thin sides are an inherent weakness. Blacksmiths are hesitant to produce a chisel that is likely to break. I have not been able to convince the blacksmiths that make oirenomi chisels for me with the side edges as thin as I would like. Paring chisels or even kanari chisels are another story. The hammer impact is the problem. Your best bet is to buy a shinogi or umeki chisel and grind the edges down to where you want them, and NOT hit them with a hammer. You will cut your fingers.

Stan

[brian zawatsky]

Wow great info! Thanks very much to all you guys for taking the time to respond. I already do all my edge tool sharpening with Shapton pro waterstones. Is there anything else I'd need to be aware of working with Japanese steel as far as sharpening is concerned?

[brian zawatsky]

Stan - I tried to PM you but your mailbox is at capacity...

[Stanley Covington]

Stan - I tried to PM you but your mailbox is at capacity...

Sorry. Please try again.

[Stanley Covington]

Wow great info! Thanks very much to all you guys for taking the time to respond. I already do all my edge tool sharpening with Shapton pro waterstones. Is there anything else I'd need to be aware of working with Japanese steel as far as sharpening is concerned?

Patrick has it right. Nearly any sharpening system will work with Japanese steel. It boils down to deciding which methodology achieves the final results you desire, at a cost you are willing to pay, and in a timeframe you find acceptable.

Shapton stones do a fine job. I think they are overpriced for the results they yield, but the money comes out of your wallet, not mine, so the judgement must be yours.

I thought I was pretty good at sharpening tools until I started to learn from professionals in Japan 40 years or so ago, compared results objectively, and discovered I didn't have a frickin clue. As a result of that training, and subsequent trial-and-error, I am a stickler for a few simple rules that the gurus and scribblers and people that prefer clever shortcuts to proper basic technique find deathly offensive. This horse has been beaten to a fluffy red powder on Sawmill Creek, so let's save ourselves some brain damage and discuss it directly if you are interested.

Stan

[Robert Hazelwood]

Wow great info! Thanks very much to all you guys for taking the time to respond. I already do all my edge tool sharpening with Shapton pro waterstones. Is there anything else I'd need to be aware of working with Japanese steel as far as sharpening is concerned?

Not really, in terms of the steel itself. Shaptons will do a nice job, although I prefer the finish from a natural stone.

If you sharpen the traditional Japanese way, with a full flat bevel, there is a bit of technique to learn. When working the bevel you have to bias the pressure towards the hard steel at the cutting edge, but without tipping the chisel. This avoids removing too much material from the soft section of the bevel, which is easy to do and has the effect of lowering the bevel angle over time, and makes it hard to get to the very edge on the stone.

Another issue is stiction, where the bevel gets sucked down on the stone and doesn't want to slide. This is worse the larger the bevel is, but is usually improved by keeping the pressure on the hard steel. Putting a surfectant in the water you use can help as well.

Also you have to pay attention when working the back. Because of the hollow in the center, there is not much steel contacting the stone except for thin strips along the sides. You need to constantly move the blade as you work the back so that the edge of stone doesn't cut a little groove into the thin strips on the sides, and keep the pressure towards the cutting edge. This is more of an issue with kanna than with chisels, which have more material on the back, but can still happen, especially on coarser stones when you are trying to flatten the back.

[Gary Muto]

Brian

Look into Koyamaichi. Both Tools from Japan and Lee Valley sell them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That's what I have. I've been really happy with them.

[Mike Holbrook]

+1 on The chisels Stanley got for me. Mine are paring chisels and among my favorites. I have Koyamachis like Derek mentions and they are good too. I have a few Ouchi which function sort of like dressed up Koyamachi chisels. You might try one or two to see if you like them. The issue being that you may end up with three different Japanese chisel types, like me. This is not a real problem though as the designs, in terms of handles and blades are very similar.

One thing you may want to be aware of, there are many more types of Japanese chisels. You may want to think about what you plan to use them for and then ask someone like Stan for advise.