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Thread: The "Ultimate Tabletop Machine" for Woodworkers

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Rochester NY
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    147
    Bill, how would you categorize the "maybe three" types of users?

    The 2 obvious ones would be hobbyists and commercial production shops. But I think there's a vast range in between

    Me for instance - I'm a full time, semi-retired (parse that!) banjo maker, with a large shop full of big industrial machines left over from my furniture making days. Machine rich, but low income. I have a tabletop router, but it's only a small part of my operation, it doesn't get used very often. But when it does, it has to be accurate and reliable. I think there are all sorts of instrument makers out there in similar situations, need a high quality machine, but low usage.

    Probably similar for a lot of custom furniture makers too. And then there's the niches - prosthetic makers, cuemakers, stuff you can't even imagine.

    I think Gary's market will be the sort of operations I've just described - specialty shops with very particular needs (or owners). And then probably some well heeled hobbyists who want the best stuff available. After all there are hobbyists who collect Monarch 10ee lathes. If you've never heard of a 10ee, google it, they are quite something else - a 3500 lb, 12" x 20" lathe accurate to 50 millionths of an inch, magnificent beasts.

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Marquette, MI USA
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    519
    Richard....
    Cant speak for Bill, but let me interject my 2 cents. For some reason, unknown to me, hobbyists sometimes get a bad rap. They often are retired geniuses with much more time to perfect a craft than many of us. So my first division would be to divide users into 2 main groups, commercial and non commercial. Commercial are they guys that walk into a room with some equipment in it and 100% of their income comes from what happens in that room (give or take). Non-commercial users do not.

    Those 2 groups do not have the same expectations of their equipment. Nor should they. They should not be purchasing the same machines, yet they do. They should not have anywhere near the same purchasing requirements either. Yet they do.

    In the non commercial group you have about 3 sub groups. Those with small, medium and large checkbooks. You notice I did not say budget. The small group usually builds their own. The medium buys small to medium sized commercially produced machines in the ~$3500 and down range. The large buys up to the ~$15K range. They all buy what they can afford, and their impressions of their various machines is very similar.

    In the commercial group there are also about 3 groups. Small medium and large budgets. Those budgets are set by a cost analysis and ROI or return on investment. I might define them as light commercial, heavy commercial and industrial. Light commercial has 10 or less employees and works 40 hrs a week. Like a sign or cabinet shop. Heavy commercial usually has more employees and probably more machines. They are more likely to sell components than products. Like a job shop or a supplier for parts for those sign and cabinet shops. Depending on work load. they may pull an extra shift or two when it is busy. Industrial is a total different matter. Dozens or hundreds of employees, 2-3 shifts a day, multiple machines running 24 hours a day.

    In a commercial shop a machines perceived value can be determined by the cost of manual labor it can replace or by an increase in productivity. All quantifiable factors. The shops that have very well paid employees and expensive truck have much better CNC machines than those who do not. Anecdotal evidence shows that very few shops feel a need to spend more on a machine than an employee is paid annually. And about half of what the owners pickup costs. Personally, I know I could put much more money in the bank with a $50K CNC and a $25K pickup than I could the other way around, but most light commercial guys do it the other way. Big dollars in the truck and small ones in the CNC.

    So, the synopsis would be that non commercial users don't require an ROI or an increase in productivity to justify any costs. They are buying toys. Toys that can put some good bucks in their pockets if they wish, or not. And depending on their checkbook they will spend between $1500 and $20,000 for their CNC hobby. Much less than boating, skiing, hunting, fishing or golf over the next 5 years. True commercial users start around $30K (<3 man shops) and industrial around $100K. Its all about the quality and weight of the components and their duty cycle.

    In my opinion the lines get blurred because CNC manufacturers don't want to lose sales. Mostly because none of them can build 6 model lines and stay in business. So they upgrade their sales pitch. That's OK because few of the big automakers can sell 6 lines of trucks and stay in business either. But then again, the automakers don't put terms like "commercial duty" or "industrial" on anything but trucks that are actually rated for those markets.

    So I would propose, in my opinion, that no commercial machine uses stepper motors, especially not NEMA23 or smaller. There is a bit of crossover with high end closed loop steppers and hybrid (stepper replacement) servos. That no machine rated for less than 16 continuous hours per day 6 days a week is truly industrial. Sadly these machines weigh in the thousands of pounds and cost over $100K and have servos in the multiple, not decimal KW (HP). The vast majority of "popular" CNC mfgr's sell to the hobby and light commercial market. There are a number that are in a couple grades of the commercial market, but it seems that the Europeans have the industrial market.

    I understand that there are both exceptions and crossover in my expels above, but they should be pretty close if you do your homework.
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Leland, NC
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    476
    Interesting view Gary. You pretty much hit most of the nails on the head. One thing I noticed in my time dealing with the commercial market (expensive laser cutters) is that so many of them had no time for maintenance but they sure had time to complain when things wore out. Seeing a 500K machine 6 months after it was installed looking like it had survived a carpet bombing always amazed me. It was all about how much material could be pushed through the machine 24/7. I am not criticizing those guys because it is entirely possible they did the math and figured out that it made more sense to beat the machines to death rather than do the maintenance.

    One thing about many of us "hobby" guys is that we seem to think our home built machines should perform like the commercial ones, you touched on that nicely. Interestingly, I am running a home built using a lot of CNC Routerparts components and I am amazed at the performance. A few years ago I posted on YouTube a video of it cutting at 800 IPM. Nah, I never really cut that fast, no reason to. But it was interesting that it could actually do it with those little Nema 23 steppers.

    What frosts me though is the hucksters that have appeared everywhere hawking junky machines. When I watch a video and the guy is only able to get results at 30 IPM because the machine flexes like a wet noodle I just grind my teeth. But go read their ads and you would think the machine performed like an industrial machining center.

    Been enjoying following this thread.

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Iowa USA
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    4,441
    Like I said, my router is strictly non commercial hobby grade. I am 74, if I wanted I could spend the money for a modest under 20k commercial machine but frankly my shop is full and I have a Lot of other interests.... and I do not need the money. My lasers bring in a little extra on the side, but I am not cheap. But I do like to keep busy.

    Yes I started my shop 20 years ago with a 1943 South Bend Heavy 10 and repaired or replaced nearly everything on it before I moved on.
    Last edited by Bill George; 02-19-2018 at 6:17 PM.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Marquette, MI USA
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    519
    To all that participated, thanks for your input. I will do everything that I can to develop these great ideas
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Marquette, MI USA
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    519
    Its been a month and a half since anyone offered up any sort of "must have" feature. In a few weeks I will post some of the results. Thanks again.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Marquette, MI USA
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    519
    I did say that I would post the results, but it has been more than a few weeks. Here is some pics of the current build as it sits on my shop floor. How about that Z clearance? That's 5 1/2" of lumber and a 6" bit with 5" out of the collet AND an inch of clearance!

    IMG_20180608_084105946.jpgIMG_20180612_175101020.jpgIMG_20180612_175433061.jpgIMG_20180612_175501784.jpgIMG_20180612_175515902.jpgIMG_20180614_125629889.jpg
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Canton, MI
    Posts
    529
    Oh, that is just too cool. What the footprint of that beast?

  9. #84
    I tell my granddaughter she's, "small but mighty". Seems like that could apply here. Do tell us more Gary, it looks almost like a caricature of a CNC router. Does it turn into a car or fly or have superpowers?

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    65,688
    Wow...little monster machine!
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  11. #86
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In the foothills of the Sandia Mountains
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    16,622
    Sweet! It looks like something you'd see in a high end machine shop.
    Please help support the Creek.


    "It's paradoxical that the idea of living a long life appeals to everyone, but the idea of getting old doesn't appeal to anyone."
    Andy Rooney



  12. #87
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Marquette, MI USA
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    519
    James...
    A little over 4' wide (Y motor covers, gantry is 4') and 5 1/2' long, 6' with a rotary installed.

    Peter..
    No "super" powers, more like an Olympic athlete. Teknic ClearPath servos on 5.6 belt reduction with stainless helical R&P running on 20 series linear rails for the X and Y. Z runs on 25mm ballscrew 1.25:1 reduction. All bearings & the screw are fed by lube pump. Currently set for 800 ipm rapids with 1800 ipm/sec acceleration. 5 tool, 3hp ATC with counterbalance. Cutting area 24"w by up to 45" long (depending on options) and has 9" of Z clearance with over 11" of Z travel. Frame and gantry are all steel, it weighs ~800#.

    The idea for these small format machines came from working for a couple CNC mfgrs. Customers, usually commercial, but sometimes discriminating hobbyists, have either continuous production needs or just need a very rigid machine with extended Z capabilities. They do not have the room for a 4 by 8 machine that have these options. They usually settle for table or desktop machines, running on NEMA23 systems and in the end, are disappointed. This is the machine that can do a 12 hour hi rez 3D carve of a 4" tall guitar neck or do a full shift of cut and engrave aluminum control panels without blinking.

    Jim and Bruce...
    That's why I decided to call them "The Ultimate Woodworking Machine"

    WinCNC Touchscreen:

    UWM Screen.jpg
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    147
    Wow, Olympic indeed! Stunning machine Gary, so muscular and solid looking! Any videos yet of it making chips?

    I'm wondering why you chose rack and pinion over ball screws for the x & y, are you able to get equivalent accuracy and repeatability? I've been under the impression that ball screws were the ultimate in precision.

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Marquette, MI USA
    Posts
    519
    Richard..
    Videos coming shortly, I have a few hundred toolchange cycles to perform before I sign off on these "new" toolchange macros.

    I think of mechanical reduction as offering the ultimate in precision. Nothing beats mechanical reduction, period. Motor turns per inch of travel. That said, when you add reduction you lose speed, so there has to be a balance. The vast majority of >$100K machines use helical R&P on the horizontal axes. You can get the same overall drive ratio from either system. Therefore you can get the same precision from either system. It is my opinion that when speed is also offered, the longevity is longer and replacement cost is much lower with the helical R&P system. Of course, replacement is usually only required as a result of neglect, but I have done onsite CNC service for a decade and know that it happens more often than most think.
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

  15. #90
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    147
    Thanks for the explanation Gary. I get the trade-off between speed and reduction, for my own needs it's definitely precision over speed. I'm a very occasional and unhurried user, but require precision for fine inlay and engraving work. Actually repeatability rather than accuracy.

    Is it possible to get zero backlash with the rack and pinion setup? Or with ball screws, absolute zero? Hard to imagine changing directions with not a bit of hysteresis...

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