Installing kitchen cabinet bases on uneven slab

[Mark Bolton]

OK - as you ask - here is my system. I find this method to be easy and accurate.

If Im reading this right its a glorified french cleat with a fastened "leg" of sorts out at the front of the cab for support and attaching a kick. The issue with this is if the hanging wall has a bow or a bulge that exact bow/bulge is going to be reflected in the face of the cabs unless you run your laser or a string line down the wall and shim your hanging cleat out from the wall to keep it dead straight. This doesnt work with most cleat systems because the cleat relies on the cab to register against the wall face and if your shimming a bulge the ends of the run will be loose or hanging low, and in a bow the center will hang low or loose. All of this is fungible with FF cabs which have a FF overhang leaving a 1/4" gap between boxes behind the frame but for frameless, euro style cabs bows and bulges in the wall are a nightmare.

Brad's post of the leg levelers is the way most commercial shops are going but they can get spendy.

[Mark Bolton]

I don't want to hijack this thread but when sing the "ladder" method what happens to an exposed end of a base cabinet(like at a door or an open kitchen). Does it look like a toekick also? I have always built the whole thing and shimmed the cabinet to floor height.

A lot of shops handle this is different ways. Some simply have an applied finished end that ends at the kick, some close the kick and have a finished end that drops to the floor. We make our boxes for FF cabs with flush interiors so there is an inch of FF overhang on a finished end and we make a full height finished end with a tall bottom rail and notch. This keeps the panels fairly consistent and doesnt close the kick making a dirt trap in the corner.

[Sam Murdoch]

If Im reading this right its a glorified french cleat with a fastened "leg" of sorts out at the front of the cab for support and attaching a kick. The issue with this is if the hanging wall has a bow or a bulge that exact bow/bulge is going to be reflected in the face of the cabs unless you run your laser or a string line down the wall and shim your hanging cleat out from the wall to keep it dead straight. This doesnt work with most cleat systems because the cleat relies on the cab to register against the wall face and if your shimming a bulge the ends of the run will be loose or hanging low, and in a bow the center will hang low or loose. All of this is fungible with FF cabs which have a FF overhang leaving a 1/4" gap between boxes behind the frame but for frameless, euro style cabs bows and bulges in the wall are a nightmare.

Brad's post of the leg levelers is the way most commercial shops are going but they can get spendy.

I'm not sure I understand the highlighted ^. The wall cleat does need to be flat and level. Achieving FLAT can be more difficult than level but with patience it is done. A wall that is way out of flat causes problems throughout the install, including countertop and backsplashes. Sometimes best to remove the existing wall cover (can be a real mess and aggravation with old plaster) and recover the studs with furred out strapping or plywood so that the cabinets are attached to flat walls. In more modest cases however, if achieving flat requires some shimming or cutting into the wall (I've done that too to eliminate bumping the cabs out too far) it's all doable.

In the case of setting the wall cleat in past the wall surface at the bulges, the cabinet cleat could be thinner stock than the wall cleat or actually removed in sections as needed. With ganged up cabinets it's OK if the cabinet cleat is not full length but set up as 2' or 3' sections as need to hang the unit securely while spanning over the wall bulges.

[Jim Becker]

I don't want to hijack this thread but when sing the "ladder" method what happens to an exposed end of a base cabinet(like at a door or an open kitchen). Does it look like a toekick also? I have always built the whole thing and shimmed the cabinet to floor height.

It's your choice on how to handle it. If you want the toe kick to be exposed on the end, just keep the end of the cabinet box on that end the same rectangle as others. If you want to have a more "finished" look with the end cabinet reaching the floor, you can either use an applied end-cap or construct that end box with an extended end panel that you can scribe to the floor. I'm sure there are more choices, too.

[scott vroom]

Wouldn't it be easier to attach a level cleat to the wall at a height from the floor equal to the kick height? Drop the box on it, put a couple of levelers in the front and done. Sam's method is similar but a bit more complicated. One big advantage of this method is that all of the cabinets start off aligned and level at the wall. I've never used this method but was reading a discussion about it on WoodWeb.

[Jim Becker]

Scott, that's yet another viable way to deal with this. Many of the adjustable levelers have provisions for attaching a (removable) toe kick panel. Ikea's setup is done this way and it's an advantage if you potentially will need access to the space under the cabinets at some point or want to be creative and put in hidden "toe kick storage".

[Mark Bolton]

Wouldn't it be easier to attach a level cleat to the wall at a height from the floor equal to the kick height? Drop the box on it, put a couple of levelers in the front and done. Sam's method is similar but a bit more complicated. One big advantage of this method is that all of the cabinets start off aligned and level at the wall. I've never used this method but was reading a discussion about it on WoodWeb.

For us in practice over the years the issue is that you often times walk into a job where the the floor inst level, the walls arent plumb, and the corners arent square. This (IMHO) is where face frame cabs shine in that you have some fudge (a ton if you run flush interiors) from cab to cab so you can infact allow the face of your cabs to undulate slightly with the wall face and corners being out of square. You cant however have your cabs rolling up and down in elevation on an uneven floor. This is where the ladder frame or leg levelers shine.

The drawback with the cleat option for me is that you now have extensive shimming at the cleat IF you have one of three factors... 1 is if you have an undulating/non-straight wall... 2 if you have an out of square corner.. 3 If your setting frameless euro boxes and an additional #4 would be a nightmare combination of all of them if your running euro boxes on an undulating wall with out of square corners.

The ladder frame or leg levelers allow you to rule out all of the factors above. You level the frame to the floor, you assemble your boxes. You can either let them float slightly with an undulating wall OR you can shim and lock them in a dead straight run and let the slop come out at the backsplash (as long as your not running post form or integrated backsplash). Either way, if your cabs roll a slight amount in plan view the counter overhang is going to take care of that, if they are dead straight and you have some variation at the backsplash even granite will allow for a bit of fudge there. If you have a crazy amount of bow/bulge/out of square at the wall you'd better be using an applied splash period.

All of these options of course are dependent on each individual set of site conditions. Me personally I would never reference my cabs off the wall face in any way. Walls are not level, they are not straight, and they are not square. I choose to deal with one variable and thats the floor. I level my kick, and the counter deals with all the other variables. The kick could be traded for leg levelers if the budget allows. Ive never had an issue leveling a detached kick so Ive never seen the need.

[Glen Gunderson]

Wouldn't it be easier to attach a level cleat to the wall at a height from the floor equal to the kick height? Drop the box on it, put a couple of levelers in the front and done. Sam's method is similar but a bit more complicated. One big advantage of this method is that all of the cabinets start off aligned and level at the wall. I've never used this method but was reading a discussion about it on WoodWeb.

Yeah, that's basically how Ikea cabinets are installed, though they use a metal rail at the top for the wall connection. It's about as easy as it gets.

I've done ladder frames before too, but levelers are much quicker.

[scott vroom]

The drawback with the cleat option for me is that you now have extensive shimming at the cleat IF you have one of three factors... 1 is if you have an undulating/non-straight wall... 2 if you have an out of square corner.. 3 If your setting frameless euro boxes and an additional #4 would be a nightmare combination of all of them if your running euro boxes on an undulating wall with out of square corners.

The ladder frame or leg levelers allow you to rule out all of the factors above. You level the frame to the floor, you assemble your boxes. You can either let them float slightly with an undulating wall OR you can shim and lock them in a dead straight run and let the slop come out at the backsplash (as long as your not running post form or integrated backsplash). Either way, if your cabs roll a slight amount in plan view the counter overhang is going to take care of that, if they are dead straight and you have some variation at the backsplash even granite will allow for a bit of fudge there. If you have a crazy amount of bow/bulge/out of square at the wall you'd better be using an applied splash period.

All of these options of course are dependent on each individual set of site conditions. Me personally I would never reference my cabs off the wall face in any way. Walls are not level, they are not straight, and they are not square. I choose to deal with one variable and thats the floor. I level my kick, and the counter deals with all the other variables. The kick could be traded for leg levelers if the budget allows. Ive never had an issue leveling a detached kick so Ive never seen the need.

A 2x4 cleat face bolted to the studs would provide plenty of ledge width to mitigate curvy walls and out-of-square corners.

[jack duren]

Find your highest point with your level and start a line on the wall from there..Simple to install. Personally I can't stand separate bases...

[Mark Bolton]

A 2x4 cleat face bolted to the studs would provide plenty of ledge width to mitigate curvy walls and out-of-square corners.

You mean a 2x4 behind the cabs inbetween the cabs and the wall?

[Martin Wasner]

Find your highest point with your level and start a line on the wall from there..Simple to install. Personally I can't stand separate bases...

Me neither. Applying a face on-site seems horrific as well, and dealing with outside corners in likely thin material that is finished is unpleasant.

[Sam Murdoch]

Wouldn't it be easier to attach a level cleat to the wall at a height from the floor equal to the kick height? Drop the box on it, put a couple of levelers in the front and done. Sam's method is similar but a bit more complicated. One big advantage of this method is that all of the cabinets start off aligned and level at the wall. I've never used this method but was reading a discussion about it on WoodWeb.

I prefer to work standing up so NO, IMHO, much easier to attach the wall cleat at a 30" + height than lower. Easier too set a laser level to that height and everything else associated too. Except for setting islands, building sub bases has always been a nuisance to me so my current method has evolved over the years.

A few more advantages to list and then I'll stop, at the risk of becoming argumentative, which is absolutely not my intent. Just trying to respond fully to Scott's opening question.

• I always have plywood rips on hand. My system in an 8 foot run requires at most, 4 rips of 3" +/- wide scrap 3/4" or 1/2" plywood. Some variation on the theme for longer runs - I would use 6' to 8' lengths of plywood in a series. On the other hand, surprising how much lumber it can take to build a long run of a sub base.

• I'd rather work the 2 dimensions on the wall to attach by cleat than spend time on my hands and knees trying to set a 20" x 96" base. Lots of remodeling here of old ocean side cottages and some of those floors are out 2" or more in 8' and often run off in multiple directions. By contrast, the worst walls I have encountered have been out maybe an 1' in a 12' run (a recent project) with hollows and bumps in between. Even this scenario is easy to correct with a taut string and some shims or pads. You don't need a substantial wall cleat just enough to catch your cabinet clean to locate the cabinets before you screw through the backs into the studs. As I wrote above, the wall cleat does not need to be continuous as long as there is enough well spaced ledger to catch the cabinet cleat.

• Out of square corners can be an issue for certain if 2 runs of cabinets are making a corner. The ends of two intersecting runs of cabinets can require some fillers or other magic that makes creating a square wall cleat hanging system a challenge. Those scenarios create issues (more than just setting the cabinets) regardless of the support system.

Every situation requires an assessment of what system is best and all the systems have merit. For me, the cleat and L works very well, requires few additional materials, makes work at a comfortable height and is frequently the fastest and most accurate method. Your milage may vary.

[Wayne Lomman]

Mark Bolton has the right idea here. His method cuts out the extra variables.

More importantly, this method works to the strength of timber ie timber is strong in compression and weaker in tension. You build a whole house on firm foundations, and a kitchen needs to be done the same. Any method that relies on suspending the base cabinets is asking for settling to happen over time.

There is also a misconception (back in all this somewhere) that frameless cabinets are somehow harder to align on wobbly walls than face frame cabinets. This is incorrect - the style of construction makes no difference. The difference is in the skill of the cabinetmaker. Good tradies make it work either way.

Finally, since when is Ikea an authority worth quoting to support an argument on these pages?.... Cheers

[jack duren]

Mark Bolton has the right idea here. His method cuts out the extra variables.

More importantly, this method works to the strength of timber ie timber is strong in compression and weaker in tension. You build a whole house on firm foundations, and a kitchen needs to be done the same. Any method that relies on suspending the base cabinets is asking for settling to happen over time.

There is also a misconception (back in all this somewhere) that frameless cabinets are somehow harder to align on wobbly walls than face frame cabinets. This is incorrect - the style of construction makes no difference. The difference is in the skill of the cabinetmaker. Good tradies make it work either way.

Finally, since when is Ikea an authority worth quoting to support an argument on these pages?.... Cheers

I know the difference..Separate toe is harder to set...Hard on my knees too...I was payed very well as an installer but at 52 those days are over,,,