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Thread: Installing kitchen cabinet bases on uneven slab

  1. #1
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    Installing kitchen cabinet bases on uneven slab

    I'm building and installing cabinets as part of a complete kitchen tear out and remodel. The slab is out of flat in general and in particular slopes down from the base plate along the entire length of the exterior wall. I'm building 2 base units to span the 142" run against the exterior wall (separated by a dishwasher opening). This should make the job of leveling less complicated. I'm considering 2 methods of leveling: 1) build a ladder frame toe base and scribe it to the floor then place the boxes on top, or 2) install a 1 x 3 level cleat along the wall, land the back of the boxes on it and use leg levelers in the front. I'm leaning toward #2 because it's less work and pretty much guarantees dead level-thru on the 2 independent bases.

    Anyone use the cleat and leveler method? How did it work out? Recommendations on leveler type?
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  2. #2
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    I used separate "toe base" for our VERY uneven kitchen so that I could level the base across every dimension before placing the actual boxes. Honestly, that's how I would do it for even a relatively flat and level room, too...I don't prefer having to cut out for toe kicks on cabinet sides. The separate toe base is so much easier to work with to get plumb and then the base cabinet installation goes "really fast".
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 01-19-2018 at 2:15 PM.
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  3. #3
    I always just add scribe on the bottoms for those situations. Toss the laser out, find the high spot, level out all of the bases high on shims, mark and cut the bottoms, then just drop them in place.

    Scribing three faces of a box is a heck of a lot easier than scribing a ladder.

    Be careful of appliances that sit on the floor. There's usually not as much adjustment on a dishwasher, fridge or range as you'd want.

  4. #4
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    Martin, the way I did it was to just level the "ladder" using shims and fasten it down to the floor and the wall and then put an applied 1/2" front piece to it. Only that one piece had to be scribed and it was really easy to do by clamping it to the "ladder", marking it, doing the deed and then applying it permanently. I was able to pre-paint it black, too.
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  5. #5
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    I typically use the method described by Jim Becker above: Ladder frame shimmed to level and a "skin" that is scribed to the floor. Then the boxes just sit on the ladder frame, and are screwed to the wall.

    The most out-of-level kitchen I've done was 3 inches out in a 15-foot run. Yow! (toe kick went from 3" to 6")

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Miner View Post
    The most out-of-level kitchen I've done was 3 inches out in a 15-foot run. Yow! (toe kick went from 3" to 6")
    No cooking wearing roller skates in that kitchen! LOL
    --

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  7. #7
    We run a detached kick similar to what Jim describes. We build our boxes with no kick (they are all just boxes, flat on the bottom). You assemble the kick in the space and shim it once and once only. Screw it to the wall and glue your shims in as needed. Then you just place the boxes on top of the kick and run like the wind. The kick face is a piece of 1/4" ply that is either stain matched or more often black. You can cut it as best you can to the uneven floor and let the unevenness ride at the top of the kick where it will never be seen. 99% of the time our boxes are installed before the finished tile or hardwood so you just install the 1/4" kick face and then tile/hardwood up to the kick for a dead clean install.

    We do run into some issues with the new HGTV mode of installing the flooring first (which makes zero sense) but at that point they just have to do what they have to do.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    We run a detached kick similar to what Jim describes. We build our boxes with no kick (they are all just boxes, flat on the bottom). You assemble the kick in the space and shim it once and once only. Screw it to the wall and glue your shims in as needed. Then you just place the boxes on top of the kick and run like the wind. The kick face is a piece of 1/4" ply that is either stain matched or more often black. You can cut it as best you can to the uneven floor and let the unevenness ride at the top of the kick where it will never be seen. 99% of the time our boxes are installed before the finished tile or hardwood so you just install the 1/4" kick face and then tile/hardwood up to the kick for a dead clean install.

    We do run into some issues with the new HGTV mode of installing the flooring first (which makes zero sense) but at that point they just have to do what they have to do.
    We always battled a bit with the flooring guys who would go in first. They wanted to go first so they could just lay the floor and leave a slight edge around the wall. We of course wanted to go first so we could do as you said Martin and not have to worry about uneven tile creating gaps. Our contractors normally went with us first as that way there was no damage possible to the flooring.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Blatter View Post
    We always battled a bit with the flooring guys who would go in first. They wanted to go first so they could just lay the floor and leave a slight edge around the wall. We of course wanted to go first so we could do as you said Martin and not have to worry about uneven tile creating gaps. Our contractors normally went with us first as that way there was no damage possible to the flooring.
    Right, and not only when you lay cabs, baseboard, or basically anything, over ceramic, or now this deeply contoured "hand scraped" hardwood, you have horrendous gaps below the cabs and base and every depth variation or grout joint. It looks fine when the customer writes the check but in a couple years those gaps gather dust, grease, and crud, and you have these black, slimy, nasty, impossible to clean, dirt magnets, at every grout joint, dip in the hand scraped floor, and so on. The homeowners only option would be to get down there with a tooth brush and scrub out what they can reach.

    I come from the world of flooring second to last, and final coat of paint dead last (with perhaps carpet being totally last but most jobs we are in dont use carpet). The flooring guys have to do their job and lay to the finished face. Tile guys need to rake out their joints against fixed faces (or be clean enough not to get grout in there in the first place) and then fill those joints with color matched sanded caulk. Hardwood can run tight in anything other than a huge room or a house with inadequate humidifaction in winter and dehumidification in summer.

  10. #10
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    Make a separate ladder base, shim it level, scribe a line all around, toss out the shims and plane it to that line. Your base fits perfectly with no gaps to any surface. It also directs all loads evenly to the floor which is especially important with stone tops. This will still be level in 40 years if the house itself doesn't move. Cheers

  11. #11
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    OK - as you ask - here is my system. I find this method to be easy and accurate.

    1) I attach a full length 2" to 3" ply cleat to the 1/2" backs of my ganged up cabinets. This cleat is set just below or flush to the top edge of the cabinet.

    2) With a laser I establish my wall line to which I attach the wall cleat. This wall cleat is set at the height so that the cabinet cleat will land on this wall cleat set to the proper height off the floor. You might have guessed by now that my cabinets will project away from the wall 1/2" to 3/4" by the thickness of the wall cleat (usually 3/4") so this added dimension needs to be factored into the design.

    3) The bottoms of the ganged up cabinets are all flat to each other.

    4) I build a 3/4" ply L - with 2, 3'" to 4" legs, glued and screwed to each other. This L is set up side down . One leg of the L is screwed to the underside of the cabinets so that the unfinished face is set back from the front the toe kick depth + the thickness of the finish toe kick.

    The face of the L is a predetermined dimension that is set to be short approx. 1/4" to 3/8" off the floor high spot. (The cabinets will NOT BE LEVEL resting on the L.) You can add a short length of L on any open end too.

    5) Now with cleat on wall and cabinet and L mounted to the base I lift up my ganged cabinets onto the perfectly level wall cleat. I have pre-located the studs so in one or 2 spots I drive in a screw to hold the cabinets to the studs (temporarily- these are sacrificial screws as they will likely get bent a bit). The gang of cabinets, at this point, is leaning slightly forward - resting on the bottom L.

    6) I raise the cabinets to closer to horizontal and start driving in shim shingles. I drive shim shingles in all along the front under my L until the cabinets are level and plumb in all orientations AND now should be tight to the wall and securely resting on the wall cleat. A NOTE - I use PL adhesive on top and bottom of the shims so that once cured the shims are located to stay between the cabinet L and the floor.

    7) Once the cabinetry is all level, I finish attaching with screws through the cabinet backs/cleat to the wall studs.

    8) Cut off the long shims on the floor. Attach the finish toe base. The finish toe base sits hard against the floor covering the gap of the L and adding additional full length bearing for the cabinetry.

    Takes about as long to do the above procedure as it took me to write this description .
    I gave up on ladder base along time ago. This works so well.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Murdoch View Post
    OK - as you ask - here is my system. I find this method to be easy and accurate.

    1) I attach a full length 2" to 3" ply cleat to the 1/2" backs of my ganged up cabinets. This cleat is set just below or flush to the top edge of the cabinet.

    2) With a laser I establish my wall line to which I attach the wall cleat. This wall cleat is set at the height so that the cabinet cleat will land on this wall cleat set to the proper height off the floor. You might have guessed by now that my cabinets will project away from the wall 1/2" to 3/4" by the thickness of the wall cleat (usually 3/4") so this added dimension needs to be factored into the design.

    3) The bottoms of the ganged up cabinets are all flat to each other.

    4) I build a 3/4" ply L - with 2, 3'" to 4" legs, glued and screwed to each other. This L is set up side down . One leg of the L is screwed to the underside of the cabinets so that the unfinished face is set back from the front the toe kick depth + the thickness of the finish toe kick.

    The face of the L is a predetermined dimension that is set to be short approx. 1/4" to 3/8" off the floor high spot. (The cabinets will NOT BE LEVEL resting on the L.) You can add a short length of L on any open end too.

    5) Now with cleat on wall and cabinet and L mounted to the base I lift up my ganged cabinets onto the perfectly level wall cleat. I have pre-located the studs so in one or 2 spots I drive in a screw to hold the cabinets to the studs (temporarily- these are sacrificial screws as they will likely get bent a bit). The gang of cabinets, at this point, is leaning slightly forward - resting on the bottom L.

    6) I raise the cabinets to closer to horizontal and start driving in shim shingles. I drive shim shingles in all along the front under my L until the cabinets are level and plumb in all orientations AND now should be tight to the wall and securely resting on the wall cleat. A NOTE - I use PL adhesive on top and bottom of the shims so that once cured the shims are located to stay between the cabinet L and the floor.

    7) Once the cabinetry is all level, I finish attaching with screws through the cabinet backs/cleat to the wall studs.

    8) Cut off the long shims on the floor. Attach the finish toe base. The finish toe base sits hard against the floor covering the gap of the L and adding additional full length bearing for the cabinetry.

    Takes about as long to do the above procedure as it took me to write this description .
    I gave up on ladder base along time ago. This works so well.
    Sam, I was wondering if anyone would describe this method.

    IKEA's kitchen cabinet system utilizes a variation on the same system. It relies on a metal hanging rail that looks a little like a unistrut, and mating metal hangers that mount to the back of the cabinet sides. Then adjustable legs are attached to the bottom of the boxes and the toe kick attaches to the legs with clips. If there's a gap it's at the top of the toe kick under the box where nobody can see it. Zero scribing. Blum sells most of these parts except for the hanging rail, which could be substituted with a french cleat.
    A lot of people mock IKEA, but their cabinet installation system is brilliant.
    A pro not familiar with it might be well served to stop in to one of their stores and check it out if you're interested in simplifying the installation process and reducing man hours.

  13. #13
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    I don't want to hijack this thread but when sing the "ladder" method what happens to an exposed end of a base cabinet(like at a door or an open kitchen). Does it look like a toekick also? I have always built the whole thing and shimmed the cabinet to floor height.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Santos View Post
    Sam, I was wondering if anyone would describe this method.

    IKEA's kitchen cabinet system utilizes a variation on the same system. It relies on a metal hanging rail that looks a little like a unistrut, and mating metal hangers that mount to the back of the cabinet sides. Then adjustable legs are attached to the bottom of the boxes and the toe kick attaches to the legs with clips. If there's a gap it's at the top of the toe kick under the box where nobody can see it. Zero scribing. Blum sells most of these parts except for the hanging rail, which could be substituted with a french cleat.
    A lot of people mock IKEA, but their cabinet installation system is brilliant.
    A pro not familiar with it might be well served to stop in to one of their stores and check it out if you're interested in simplifying the installation process and reducing man hours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cary Falk View Post
    I don't want to hijack this thread but when sing the "ladder" method what happens to an exposed end of a base cabinet(like at a door or an open kitchen). Does it look like a toekick also? I have always built the whole thing and shimmed the cabinet to floor height.

    Edwin - the one down side (that I can think of/experienced - upper cabinets in particular) to using those metal mating rails is attaching them to a wall that is not flat in the length of the cabinet run. Easier to shim out a plywood cleat - more of a visual to hold your long level against and to keep flat as you shim. On a new flat wall the low profile is excellent. My technique with the L at the bottom of the cabinet could create issues though with distorting the metal rail, as I start the install with the bank of cabinets sloping forward. The metal rails don't allow that kid of flexibility.

    Cary - You can add finished end panels that go right to the floor or create a recess toe at the ends too. In the latter case apply a finished toe board. I don't hesitate to add finished panels and/or solid posts as corners AFTER the install of the basic cabinets regardless of how they are supported. This is pretty typical when installing an island cabinet which is more typically set on a separate base (my preference) or on leveler feet.
    "... for when we become in heart completely poor, we at once are the treasurers & disbursers of enormous riches."
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Murdoch View Post
    Edwin - the one down side (that I can think of/experienced - upper cabinets in particular) to using those metal mating rails is attaching them to a wall that is not flat in the length of the cabinet run. Easier to shim out a plywood cleat - more of a visual to hold your long level against and to keep flat as you shim. On a new flat wall the low profile is excellent. My technique with the L at the bottom of the cabinet could create issues though with distorting the metal rail, as I start the install with the bank of cabinets sloping forward. The metal rails don't allow that kid of flexibility.
    Hi Sam,
    You're right, an uneven wall presents it's own problem for the metal rail, which is very rigid. What they recommend you do is attach the rail to the wall at only the ends, thus revealing the wall gaps along the length, and then proceed with shims at every point where you're driving screws. The rail is perforated with holes like unistrut, so there will always be a hole at a stud location.

    I actually like your L at the bottom of the cabinet a little better than their system because I've never cared for the snap on clips for attaching the kick to the legs. However, the rail is very strong, and you can hang the bases off it with nothing (they give you a spacer to tack to the bottom of the back to match the rail space). The weight of the box is not nearly enough to bend or deform the rail until you level the legs so they're bearing on the floor.
    Again, french cleats will perform the same function as the rail for the most part, maybe not as fast or flexible.

    There are other manufacturers that sell systems like this and they're not as expensive as one might think. Here's one:
    https://www.wwhardware.com/pmi-steel-cabinet-hanging-rail-pmi87

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