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Thread: Turning from power tools to hand tools

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Sutherland View Post
    Sorry about that. It’s the “Hot Dog” that you can get.
    One thing I noticed when researching the 19-38 was that everyone who had one made the remark that they never knew how they got along without it. I find I feel the same way. I find I can take two boards that are almost perfect in dimensions and run them through a few times side by side and end up with identical dimensions. To me the 735 is like a scrub plane.
    Ah, but if you're hand-finishing then a "motorized scrub plane" to do the drudge work of thicknessing is exactly what you want. Final dimensioning is done by hand.

    I acknowledge that a drum sander can get you closer dimensionally, but the surfaces they leave are so torn up (IMO, I'm well aware that this is a bit of a holy war) that you have to do significant remedial work regardless.

  2. #32
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    I guess they’d be pretty torn up if you were using 80 grit but at the 120 I am using it was really pretty smooth. Didn’t take that many passes and if I had a smoothing plane I guess I’d take a pass with it.

  3. #33
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    Once you start finishing surfaces with a smoother - or even a card scraper for that matter - a 120 grit sanded surface will will seem like the surface of a cinder block.
    ---Trudging the Road of Happy Destiny---

  4. #34
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    I realize that you like the drum sander and that it works well for you. But, you have stated that you like working with hand tools and want to move towards doing more hand tool work and will sell power equipment from your shop as you go that direction. The reason the drum sander has come into question by some in this thread is that it is not a machine that fits in comfortably with a hand tool approach as well as a planer does. Hand planning after bringing your stock close to final thickness with a planer is fairly standard for hybrid (combined machine/hand tool) woodworkers. As Brian Z said, the drum sander will not leave you a satisfactory finish after you get up to speed with hand planes whereas a planer can always be used. Again, it is your shop, your wood and your $, so take our answers to your question however you wish. Main thing is, have fun.
    David

  5. #35
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    I find with my planer I have a lot of blade marks running the length and width I’d the board. This is seems to be common with the DeWalt 735. My blades are sharp and no nicks. My experience today was to use my Scrub to dimension the board flat on both sides and then use my 62 to flatten and smooth it. Worked well and was a lot more fun than the planer. I then ran it through the drum sander. If I had a true smoother I would have finished with that.

  6. #36
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    Use a jack and try plane to face joint, follow up with a pass through the planer using jointed side as a reference. Finish up with a well tuned smoother and you will wonder why you own a drum sander.

    Drum sand before finish planing and you will return to sanding. Embedded grit from sanding is brutal on tool edges.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  7. #37
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    One of my reasons for using hand tools, is I can work at night without keeping the wife or other family up. I was using a 2” chisel to remove wood from a red oak log, requiring loud, heavy mallet blows. I could have continued work on a couple wood handles I am working on for the daughter’s cabinet. I could have plowed grooves in a 2x8 for a work table. Sawed trim pieces for the table top build using one of my hand miter boxes, planed chair or bench legs.....My dogs said to call it a night though.

    I like breathing the cleaner air, and the easier clean up too. There is still sawdust covering all sorts of things, from the last time I used a powered saw for ripping.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Sutherland View Post
    I guess they’d be pretty torn up if you were using 80 grit but at the 120 I am using it was really pretty smooth. Didn’t take that many passes and if I had a smoothing plane I guess I’d take a pass with it.
    Most hand-tool geeks would consider the result of a 120# drum to be a very rough surface.

    Higher-grit sandpapers can of course produce smoother surfaces, but they do so at the expense of crushing and "closing off" the wood's microstructure. Only a clean-cutting blade can achieve a smooth surface while preserving the wood's structure and depth, though note that the difference may not matter with heavy finishes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Sutherland View Post
    I find with my planer I have a lot of blade marks running the length and width I’d the board. This is seems to be common with the DeWalt 735. My blades are sharp and no nicks. My experience today was to use my Scrub to dimension the board flat on both sides and then use my 62 to flatten and smooth it. Worked well and was a lot more fun than the planer. I then ran it through the drum sander. If I had a true smoother I would have finished with that.
    The 62 makes a perfectly adequate smoother when tuned up as such. After all it's "jack" as in "jack of all trades". The only substantive difference between the 62 and the 164 (nominally a smoother) is a few inches of length, and there are plenty of very well-regarded hand-tool experts who prefer the longer plane (not me though :-)

    It sounds to me as though you mostly just need to pay your dues practicing smoothing. You might start by putting a ~35 degree bevel and some camber on your 62's iron, and work with that until you can produce a uniformly glassy, track-free surface in straight-grained domestic hardwoods. Once you can do that you can start learning the variations necessary for more difficult jobs.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-14-2018 at 2:06 AM.

  9. #39
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    I find I can take two boards that are almost perfect in dimensions and run them through a few times side by side and end up with identical dimensions. To me the 735 is like a scrub plane.
    Bill, that is what handplanes do. And they do it better ... finished surfaces. Without dust and noise ... and dust.

    You are planning to use handplanes to finish, so why not kill two birds with one stone. This is why you want to use handplanes, not so? This is where the enjoyment starts. There is no sander than can compete with the finish off a hand plane.

    Personally, I would keep the planer and sell the drum sander. The planes will do a better job of removing waste fast and getting to a dimension without any rounded edges (which is what sanders can do).

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  10. #40
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    Yesterday I took Allen Breinig's suggestion and broke down one board into two identically sized boards using only hand tool. After a disastrous start with ripping via handsaw I started the dimensioning process with the scrub and my 62. I wanted to get everything done with the handplanes. I do have to say that I did get them "almost" identical but in the end I was off 2mm in width and thickness. In hindsight I suppose I could have butted the two together in a vise and planed until they were identical. Next time I'll do just that. Instead I used the drum sander to get them identical.
    I was able to get the silky smooth result with the 62 and can see where sanding from that point would ruin that beautiful finish. My disconnect is that once I got the wood to the silky smooth finish I would then start my process of dovetailing to create the box. Since most boxes seem to get sanded after joining the dovetails wouldn't this negate the silky smooth finish? If I was building furniture or just doing large panel glue up I could see the advantage of finishing with a smoother.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Sutherland View Post
    Yesterday I took Allen Breinig's suggestion and broke down one board into two identically sized boards using only hand tool. After a disastrous start with ripping via handsaw I started the dimensioning process with the scrub and my 62. I wanted to get everything done with the handplanes. I do have to say that I did get them "almost" identical but in the end I was off 2mm in width and thickness. In hindsight I suppose I could have butted the two together in a vise and planed until they were identical. Next time I'll do just that. Instead I used the drum sander to get them identical.
    I was able to get the silky smooth result with the 62 and can see where sanding from that point would ruin that beautiful finish. My disconnect is that once I got the wood to the silky smooth finish I would then start my process of dovetailing to create the box. Since most boxes seem to get sanded after joining the dovetails wouldn't this negate the silky smooth finish? If I was building furniture or just doing large panel glue up I could see the advantage of finishing with a smoother.
    Bill,

    Why the obsession with identical? Boards used for hand tool joinery do not need to be identical, they only need correctly prepared reference edge and face.

    ken

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Sutherland View Post
    [edit]
    My disconnect is that once I got the wood to the silky smooth finish I would then start my process of dovetailing to create the box. Since most boxes seem to get sanded after joining the dovetails wouldn't this negate the silky smooth finish? If I was building furniture or just doing large panel glue up I could see the advantage of finishing with a smoother.
    Actually after the dovetailing the boxes may be given a few swipes to remove any of the "proudness" of the pins and tails. This usually is done with a low angle block plane working towards the center of the box to avoid blowing out the edges of the pins or tails.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  13. #43
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    <p>
    Fascinating thread. I would really like to combine power and hand tools in my shop. The thought of using hand tools is peaceful and soothing to think about. But power tools have their place when up against a time frame that gets less with each pasing day. Or so it would seem. Disclamer: I don&#39;t have a shop yet and no clients. I&#39;m crrently planing and building a shop specific to my needs and wants.</p>
    <p>
    &nbsp;</p>
    <p>
    4, 4.5, 5, 62, scrub plane, block plane, bench plane, smoother, jack plan, low angle and high angle. Frogs? So confusing for someone jsut starting out. How to decide what to get and when to use which plane when you can&#39;t even speak the language. Dimensioning, roughing and smoothing are about the only terms I have understood in this thread.</p>
    Last edited by Marshall K Harrison; 01-14-2018 at 12:58 PM. Reason: Added more planes. Does it ever end?

  14. #44
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    Marshall - Web based woodworking "how-to" or tutorials (either full blown instructional treatments or quick You Tube videos) can get you started. Also, there are several decent books written that help new-to-the-hand-tool approach towards woodworking that are very useful and remain as reference material until the information becomes imbedded. Some of the web guys and authors are better woodworkers than teachers or writers and some are better writers/teachers than woodworkers, but all can help when you are just starting out. Some names that come to mind are Paul Sellers, Shannon Rogers, Rob Cosman, Chris Tribe, David Barron, Jim Tolpin and many, many more. Many of the above mentioned have slightly differing methods for the same task, but there are different ways to get to the same place and each of us have individual preferences as to which way we prefer. A guy named Chris Schwarz has something out called "Coarse, Medium and Fine" or something similar that discusses the (to Chris) basic procedure in processing wood for a project. Many folks have started with Paul Sellers' as their initial web-based instructor and have good things to say about his instruction. Research and get started. Have fun.

    P.S. - Go the individual web sites of SMC members Brian Holcombe and Derek Cohen for their thoughts and many, many good photos of their tools and work.
    Last edited by David Eisenhauer; 01-14-2018 at 1:56 PM.
    David

  15. #45
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    4, 4.5, 5, 62, scrub plane, block plane, bench plane, smoother, jack plan, low angle and high angle. Frogs? So confusing for someone jsut starting out. How to decide what to get and when to use which plane when you can't even speak the language. Dimensioning, roughing and smoothing are about the only terms I have understood in this thread.
    There are some great resources here that seem like they are hiding if one doesn't know where to look. One store of knowledge is the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs:

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...al-wisdom-FAQs

    It is hidden in the "Sticky Threads" at the top of the Neanderthal Haven Forum. It contains some good starter information such as:

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...th-Hand-Planes

    For many folks needs the standard "set of planes" was a smoother, a jack and a jointer. Most often this was a #4, #5 and a #7. Most folks would add a block plane to this group and would be good to go on most projects. Some folks might have smaller hands and would like a #3 for their smoother. Folks with larger hands might like a #4-1/2 for a smoother with a #8 for their jointer. With the jack planes the #5-1/4 is a junior jack and a #5-1/2 or #6 is a jumbo jack.

    A lot of what works best depends on the user. If one is mostly making keepsake boxes the smaller planes may be the best fit. If one is making large cabinetry the larger planes or a combination of sizes may be the best strategy.

    For me such decisions are difficult so it was easier to just get one of each. In reality some of my planes have multiples in their size. This is handy for a plane like a #5, aka jack plane as in Jack of all trades. One can be set up for use as a scrub plane with a smallish radius to the blade. Another can be set up with a bit less radius (camber) to follow up. One can be set up with a rather straight blade for use as a short jointer and one can be set up for light shavings as a long smoother. The hard part is remembering which is set up for what.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 01-15-2018 at 2:15 AM. Reason: wording for clarity
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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