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Thread: Getting a lot of fumes, need some troubleshooting advice.

  1. #1

    Getting a lot of fumes, need some troubleshooting advice.

    So I've read through multiple threads on how people vent, and my current setup should be more than enough to not have fuming in my garage. Granted I have the HF 2HP dust collector, but it's rated at a high enough CFM that it should have no issues pulling fumes. Whether its acrylic or wood, we're getting heavy fume smells coming into the garage. I checked for leaks, and made a few adjustments which helped a little, but we're still getting fumes. When the extractor is running, you can see it drawing smoke, but it isn't as impressive as I think it should be.

    Is it possible for fumes to be escaping the dust collector motor? Any other suggestions on what to check? I cleaned the extraction ports on the laser so I know that isn't an issue. I'm scratching my head.

    Oh and for understanding, we vent directly outside.
    Trotec Speedy 300 - 80 watt
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    LaserStar 3804 - 50 watt fiber - SPI Source
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  2. #2
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    Does the Trotec have air filters that need to be cleaned on the machine? Are all the fans on the machine running properly so that it's able to bring in enough air?

    Are you using the correct size hose for the blower you're using to vent the fumes? Any potential leaks or tight corners that might be impeding the airflow?

    Finally, where are you drawing your clean air from for your shop space? Is it possible the fumes you're venting are getting sucked (or blown) right back into your workspace?
    60W, Boss Laser 1630
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  3. #3
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    Also, what CFM is your blower rated for?
    60W, Boss Laser 1630
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    Adobe Creative suite and Laserworks 8

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Downing View Post
    Does the Trotec have air filters that need to be cleaned on the machine? Are all the fans on the machine running properly so that it's able to bring in enough air?

    Are you using the correct size hose for the blower you're using to vent the fumes? Any potential leaks or tight corners that might be impeding the airflow?

    Finally, where are you drawing your clean air from for your shop space? Is it possible the fumes you're venting are getting sucked (or blown) right back into your workspace?
    As I typed this, both of these stood out. I never looked at other people's setups, but in looking at a few videos, I see that the tight turns might be restricting airflow. Now, I'm not 90 degreeing the hoses all over the place, but I have a several 45 degree turns before it goes outside. How much does each turn affect the efficiency of the HF extractor?

    To your second question, that's another potential issue. The laser is on the back wall, near where the fumes are being sent outside. the genius that owned the home before me sheet rocked the garage, but didn't insulate, so I guess it's possible that a small amount of fumes come right back through the wall. Should I consider venting on the opposite wall from the laser?
    Trotec Speedy 300 - 80 watt
    Synrad 30 Watt - CO2 Galvo
    LaserStar 3804 - 50 watt fiber - SPI Source
    Tykma Minilase - 20 watt fiber - SPI Source - (MOPA)
    CorelDraw X7

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Downing View Post
    Also, what CFM is your blower rated for?
    I'll have to check but I think it's the 660 CFM from Harbor Freight. https://www.harborfreight.com/13-gal...tor-31810.html

    It is , it's this one. This might be part of the issue too. I might need to upgrade. I wonder if my local Rockler has a few options.
    Last edited by Jacob John; 01-06-2018 at 1:16 PM.
    Trotec Speedy 300 - 80 watt
    Synrad 30 Watt - CO2 Galvo
    LaserStar 3804 - 50 watt fiber - SPI Source
    Tykma Minilase - 20 watt fiber - SPI Source - (MOPA)
    CorelDraw X7

  6. #6
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    OK, so I'm assuming you are using flex to the blower and hard pipe going out? My blower is outside and that is my first suggestion.. That eliminates leak issue. If you can't or won't, then have you sealed all of the joints and if using snapped piping, sealed the snap joints. I'd use an aluminum tape for this, cheap and adheres well. The fan itself usually has seal on both side plates, should not leak. Intake air is needed, I'd bring that in on opposing wall as far from exit as you can. Fan should be plenty strong enough
    Woodworking, Old Tools and Shooting
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  7. #7
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    Seems like you've checked all the obvious pitfalls, and nothing stands out as a potential problem. Maybe several little things are adding up to create a problem, but I don't see any one thing from what you're describing.

    I have a hard time believing that the fumes would be coming back through properly installed drywall, I was more thinking that maybe the exhaust flowed down the wall towards a vent or window you used. EDIT: As John mentioned, a separate clean air intake on the other side of the shop will probably help a LOT if that is a possibility.

    And tight corners in the exhaust can impede air flow, but 45 degrees done properly shouldn't be a problem.

    That blower is commonly used with decently sized lasers from what I gather around here, and I've seen few complaints. But I do have the 6" blower that's a size larger so that might make a difference. IDK how much though, or if it's worth the additional cost.

    One last thing to check: if you're lasering something that gives off a reasonably noticeable odor, and you check your exhaust point outside, are you getting plenty of flow and a strong odor outside (much stronger than inside the shop)? If not, I'd say that you have something restricting the flow of your exhaust; either in the machine or along the way to the blower. If so, then you may be able to fine tune things to be more palatable, but you're probably doing most of what you can with that size blower and 4" hose.
    Last edited by Keith Downing; 01-06-2018 at 1:48 PM.
    60W, Boss Laser 1630
    75W, Epilog Legend 24EX
    Jet Left Tilting table saw and Jet 18" Band saw
    Adobe Creative suite and Laserworks 8

  8. #8
    Thanks John and Keith, it looks like I'll be going back to each seam and resealing them just to try and narrow it down. Keith, I've gone outside, especially when we're engraving wood, and there's no doubt it's being pulled outside (heavy smoke). There's no visible smoke inside the garage, just the smell. Now I know some of that smell is coming from the wood itself once it's removed, same as the acrylic, but I worry that it's too much. I might have my industrial hygiene buddy come and run the meter too. It's really the acrylic and metal engraving I worry about. The Chromium and Nickel fuming is a pretty bad thing from a health standpoint.

    John's suggestion is a good one for running a separate clean air intake. And yes that fan should be good, it sounds like a damn freight train. I really need to invest in a similar CFM, lower decibel unit.
    Trotec Speedy 300 - 80 watt
    Synrad 30 Watt - CO2 Galvo
    LaserStar 3804 - 50 watt fiber - SPI Source
    Tykma Minilase - 20 watt fiber - SPI Source - (MOPA)
    CorelDraw X7

  9. #9
    The Harbor Freight blowers are cheaply made, chinesium. They are not sealed. Trotec recommends Penn State Industries blowers.

    I guess you could get a welder and try to seal it up yourself.

  10. #10
    Can you post a few pix and a sketch of your setup... Include distances if you can.

    A few pitfalls...

    1. Fan output on these units is rated for the fan alone - no inlet/exhaust ducting and no filter bag... If you have a copy of the fan curve - you can see how it drops off at various inches of water column (back pressure). Typical commercial and industrial fans are rated at 1/2" Water column back pressure. Often HF fans are pretty horrible - they drop off really fast as the system gets any restriction - like say the ducting and bag and safety grating over the fan inlet and exit to prevent fingers... Yes - this stuff comes from the factory.... But they don't include it in the ratings...

    2. Ducting. Flex duct is horrible for back pressure/friction losses. A 10 ft run of flex can cut your CFM in half... And that doesn't count the losses from the filter bag...

    3. Are you trying to vent the whole space or pick up the fumes from your machine? These things work WAY better pulling the fumes directly off the machine as close to the point of generation as possible. It takes a huge amount of ventilation if you are trying to vent "The Room"....

    4. Outside air source? Whatever blows out has to be replaced with something. This has already been mentioned - but it's critical to have a source for fresh air to come into the area. And it's critical that this source is far away from the discharge so it isn't sucked right back in.... For example - open a window on the opposite wall?

  11. #11
    The next thing to think about is how long it takes to get an "air change" for your space - and how long you are running your fan...

    Say you measure an actual 200 cfm in your duct (filter bag, ducting, and everything else)...
    A hypothetical 20'x20'x10' garage is 4,000 cubic feet...
    That means 1 air change = 20 minutes.... Or 3 air changes/hour... You are going to smell a LOT of fumes!!

    That's honestly ineffective if you are trying to ventilate the whole space.

    If you put that same duct onto an enclosure covering your machine - say 6'x6'x6'.. That's 216 cubic feet - or about 1 minute to vent the whole thing... You will be much happier....

  12. #12
    I have several of the 'green' (or gray) HF blowers. They'll draw all the smoke you could ask for. The problem with smoke extraction isn't the blower or ducting.

    The problem? IMO it's the machine the blower and ductwork are connected to.

    I have no idea how a Trotec is set up.

    My Triumph, exhaust is just a big hole in the lower back wall beneath the work table. Most of the smoke is above the table, just drifting around until it finds some air moving toward the big hole...

    My GCC, it set up very similar to my LS900, it uses a plenum with a long narrow 'air slot' at 'focus level'- should work great, but some clown in Taiwan thought it would be a good idea to put a diverter plate in front of the 4" exhaust hole, which totally messes up the airflow's 'focus'...

    My old ULS has a great setup, which is almost identical to my LS900, which is even better...

    I just now shot this video. You'll see that I'm running a plain old HF green blower and some of the worst ducting you'll ever find.
    But watch how the smoke moves-- all because Gravograph made sure it would



    As to the fumes problem, THE BLOWER MUST BE OUTSIDE, simply because they DO move a lot of air, and the ducting between the blower and the outdoors WILL be under pressure, pushing smoke into the room...

    And FWIW, 3 of my 4 HF blowers are over 12 years old...
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  13. #13
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    Wood, the Penn state fans, along with almost 100% of everything they sell is Chinese made. Fans are identical to the HF and at least my fan has foam sealant on both side plates. I very well doubt it is the fan. I would bet a lot of the odor is burnt adhering to the laser. And there isn't much you can do about that. Especially if you are smelling after shutdown
    Woodworking, Old Tools and Shooting
    Ray Fine RF-1390 Laser Ray Fine 20watt Fiber Laser
    SFX 50 Watt Fiber Laser
    PM2000, Delta BS, Delta sander, Powermatic 50 jointer,
    Powermatic 100-12 planer, Rockwell 15-126 radial drill press
    Rockwell 46-450 lathe, and 2 Walker Turner RA1100 radial saws
    Jet JWS18, bandsaw Carbide Create CNC, RIA 22TCM 1911s and others

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by John Lifer View Post
    Wood, the Penn state fans, along with almost 100% of everything they sell is Chinese made. Fans are identical to the HF and at least my fan has foam sealant on both side plates. I very well doubt it is the fan. I would bet a lot of the odor is burnt adhering to the laser. And there isn't much you can do about that. Especially if you are smelling after shutdown
    Kinda -- PSI dust collectors, and maybe more, are manufactured in Taiwan in a ISO9001 facility. They're well made.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McCoy View Post
    Kinda -- PSI dust collectors, and maybe more, are manufactured in Taiwan in a ISO9001 facility. They're well made.
    ISO 9001 is meaningless Matt, it just means you are conforming to your own set of procedures I have it and it's nice on paper but worthless

    I just now shot this video.
    Ok, now I know I'm tired, the first thing that came to mind was "Wow , Kev has an American accent".......doh!
    You did what !

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