Calling all owners of Lie-Nielsen Scraping Planes; 212 112 85

[Rob Luter]

As a certified scraper nut, I'll chime in.

I have a nice set of card scrapers, four #80, one #81, one #12, and a #112. The ones that get used the most are the #80's and the cards. The #12 works great but is pretty aggressive as currently set up. The #81 offers a very delicate touch. The #112 (with Hock blade) is a PITA to get dialed in and never gets used.

[Mike Brady]

A good tool that is overlooked is the Lee Valley's version of the #80. It is better in the same sense that modern premium planes outperform their antique counterparts, in the hands of most users and is easy to adjust.
Also as a general comment, comparing "#112 planes" without specifying the brand is not helpful or relevant.

[david charlesworth]

I have already replied on UKworkshop.co but here are a couple of thoughts.

It perplexes me that L-N advise no hook to start with. This may work on exotic hardwoods but not well on softer woods. The hook on a scraper makes it cut wood like a plane, leaving a much nicer surface.

The 20 degree forward lean on the blade is associated with the angle that one burnishes the hook at. 75 degree hook with 20 degree lean. There are people who prefer to use a square edged scraper blade but their burnish and lean angles are likely to be different.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

[Patrick Chase]

Also as a general comment, comparing "#112 planes" without specifying the brand is not helpful or relevant.

Based on this and some previous posts you seem to have a grossly inflated sense of the differences between these planes. They all present a simple scraper to the wood in basically the same way, share the same cutting mechanics, and require basically the same tuning and setup as a consequence. The idea that the L-N would respond differently to burnishing/hooking is simply ludicrous.

Brand does determine fit and finish and also some "second tier" features such as how the blade is cambered (if at all) but that's not what the OP was asking about.

[Patrick Chase]

It perplexes me that L-N advise no hook to start with. This may work on exotic hardwoods but not well on softer woods. The hook on a scraper makes it cut wood like a plane, leaving a much nicer surface.

An un-hooked scraper used in a plane of any brand will leave dusty shavings on hard woods and gouge on softer ones. Oddly enough, that's basically what the OP complained about.

It seems blindingly obvious at this point that the real problem is with L-N's setup recommendations.

[Pete Taran]

+1 to what Patrick said. Hence the recommendation to make a normal spring steel blade and try it out. As others have noted, for general scraping, there are many other tools that work much better than the 212. If I were working with small burlwood panels, the 212 would be a great choice. For large area scraping, not so much. Perhaps send it back and get something more useful?

[Pat Barry]

Lie Nielsen instructions:
"Our Scraping Plane comes with a much thicker blade than the original. This allows the blade to be prepared somewhat differently than other scrapers. We recommend that you hone the blade to a sharp edge like a plane blade, and do not use a burr (at least until you get used to using the tool). We have found that, with a 45° bevel on the blade, our thick scraper blades sharpen more easily and produce a better surface. Slightly round the corners of the blade with a stone to prevent them from marking the work. Burnishing: If you wish to create a burr, hone the blade, and then hold it upright in a vise. Begin by holding a burnisher at about 45°, working up to 75°. Work the edge until you can feel a distinct ‘hook’ all the way across. Be very careful not to cut yourself on the upright blade. Use of a burr will give more aggressive cutting action. Turning the burr will require adjustment of the blade angle after sharpening to work best."

The last statement is the rationale for the recommendation not to use a burr. Adding the burr and getting the correct hook angle is not easy.

[Mike Brady]

Clearly I'm doing something wrong. I just used my 112 and 212 from Lie-Nielsen, sharpened at 45 degrees and the result was shavings, which we now know is impossible. Someone should share this information with Thomas Lie-Nielsen. I am curious about one thing: with all due respect to Patrick, David and Pete, are you speaking from direct with the Lie-Nielsen scraper planes?
https://flic.kr/p/23aRaaJ

[Pete Taran]

Unlike many on the interwebs, I only comment and offer advice on matters which I actually know about. I never said using the 212 was impossible, just for general scraping there are at least 4 other better choices.

I don't subscribe to a newspaper, so I couldn't pose my 212 with it, hostage style.

IMG_1810.jpg

[david charlesworth]

You bet, the best part of 45 years.

David C

[Patrick Chase]

Lie Nielsen instructions:
"Our Scraping Plane comes with a much thicker blade than the original. This allows the blade to be prepared somewhat differently than other scrapers. We recommend that you hone the blade to a sharp edge like a plane blade, and do not use a burr (at least until you get used to using the tool). We have found that, with a 45° bevel on the blade, our thick scraper blades sharpen more easily and produce a better surface. Slightly round the corners of the blade with a stone to prevent them from marking the work. Burnishing: If you wish to create a burr, hone the blade, and then hold it upright in a vise. Begin by holding a burnisher at about 45°, working up to 75°. Work the edge until you can feel a distinct ‘hook’ all the way across. Be very careful not to cut yourself on the upright blade. Use of a burr will give more aggressive cutting action. Turning the burr will require adjustment of the blade angle after sharpening to work best."

The last statement is the rationale for the recommendation not to use a burr. Adding the burr and getting the correct hook angle is not easy.

That sounds to me like a rationale to learn how to turn a consistent burr (which actual IS fairly easy), not a reason to avoid doing so altogether. There's a huge difference in achievable surface quality between cutting at >90 deg (no burr) and cutting at <60 deg (which is what a burr allows). Thickening the iron does nothing whatsoever to change that, so L-N seems to be engaging in some magical thinking about the benefits of thick irons. It would not be the first time they've done so.

I've tried the L-N 212 and 112, and I have the LV equivalents. The reason I chose the LVs is because I prefer the combination of a thinner iron with a camber adjustment screw. Flexibility is a feature in a scraper, not a defect.

To be honest I mostly use card scrapers nowdays as Pete suggests, though, as I prefer the additional control and immediacy of feedback.

[Pat Barry]

That sounds to me like a rationale to learn how to turn a consistent burr (which actual IS fairly easy), not a reason to avoid doing so altogether. There's a huge difference in achievable surface quality between cutting at >90 deg (no burr) and cutting at <60 deg (which is what a burr allows). Thickening the iron does nothing whatsoever to change that, so L-N seems to be engaging in some magical thinking about the benefits of thick irons. It would not be the first time they've done so.

I've tried the L-N 212 and 112, and I have the LV equivalents. The reason I chose the LVs is because I prefer the combination of a thinner iron with a camber adjustment screw. Flexibility is a feature in a scraper, not a defect.

To be honest I mostly use card scrapers nowdays as Pete suggests, though, as I prefer the additional control and immediacy of feedback.

I have no experience with this tool but I do believe the LN recommendation is good advice. What burr angle do you recommend that LN should direct the user to put on their tool for best performance? I'm thinking they would like to know.

[Patrick Chase]

I have no experience with this tool but I do believe the LN recommendation is good advice. What burr angle do you recommend that LN should direct the user to put on their tool for best performance? I'm thinking they would like to know.

For a scraping plane iron with a 45 deg bottom bevel, I hold the burnisher at about 15 degrees below horizontal with the bevel facing me and the side that is to receive the hook away from me (so 30 degrees above the bevel). The diagram on p. 5 of the instructions for the LV scraping plane shows the same thing.

For an ordinary flat-bottomed card scraper I hold the burnisher at about 10 deg above horizontal, again with the side to receive the burr facing away from me.

I typically put larger burrs (more pressure with the burnisher) on 45-deg scraping irons than on cards.

[Patrick Chase]

I don't subscribe to a newspaper, so I couldn't pose my 212 with it, hostage style.

Is that an iron-bodied L-N 212?

It doesn't appear to be a Stanley as the iron profile, knob shape, lever cap material etc. are all wrong and the iron is too thick. With that said the pin matches the body in color, and both are more neutral than the lever cap, so that would seem to rule out the conventional bronze-body L-N (I'm judging based on relative colors since digital camera color balance can easily make bronze look like iron in absolute terms).

Did Tom give you a one-off?

[Stewie Simpson]

That sounds to me like a rationale to learn how to turn a consistent burr (which actual IS fairly easy), not a reason to avoid doing so altogether. There's a huge difference in achievable surface quality between cutting at >90 deg (no burr) and cutting at <60 deg (which is what a burr allows). Thickening the iron does nothing whatsoever to change that, so L-N seems to be engaging in some magical thinking about the benefits of thick irons. It would not be the first time they've done so.

I've tried the L-N 212 and 112, and I have the LV equivalents. The reason I chose the LVs is because I prefer the combination of a thinner iron with a camber adjustment screw. Flexibility is a feature in a scraper, not a defect.

To be honest I mostly use card scrapers nowdays as Pete suggests, though, as I prefer the additional control and immediacy of feedback.

Do your research Patrick. Veritas® Scraping Plane http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/pag...at=1,310,48431

A feature unique to our scraping plane is an integral thumbscrew that bows the blade to eliminate ridges in the work surface caused by blade corners. The plane comes with a 0.055" high-carbon steel blade suited to this technique, and an optional 1/8" (0.125") thick blade of A2 tool steel is available for those who prefer uncambered blades.