Calling all owners of Lie-Nielsen Scraping Planes; 212 112 85

[Patrick Chase]

Hello all, thanks for such a lot of responses! It has all been really interesting information and very helpful for me to know.

One quite important question I have is; when it comes to re-sharpening the blade, what does one do with the slight remainder of the burr left on the blade? Bear in mind I am using 1,000 and then 8,000 waterstones. Do I just leave it there and re-hone on the stones? Or try to get rid of the remainder of the burr, with the stones or burnisher, before re-sharpening again?

You should stone the burr off, particularly if you're going to file the edge to get to "clean" steel. The burr is work-hardened to significantly more than the ~Rc50 initial hardness of the scraper, and will wreak havoc on all but the very hardest files. If you've ever done ski tuning, it's similar to how you remove work-hardened rock impact damage before you can file the edge. Diamond plates make short work of scraper hooks, and they don't get scored like coarse stones do.

To the person who asked; yes, I do have great successes with standard card scrapers. I sharpen them in the way Brian Boggs shows in his great video on that subject. I use card scrapers alot and love the finish they leave. I find I get around 3-4 times to re-roll the burr with my burnisher, before the quality starts diminishing, so I go back to the file, then stone...

The person who asked was Pete Taran, who founded Independence Tool which was subsequently bought by L-N and became their handsaw business. If you have to pick one person on this thread to listen to you could do a lot worse.

[Theo Hall]

The person who asked was Pete Taran, who founded Independence Tool which was subsequently bought by L-N and became their handsaw business. If you have to pick one person on this thread to listen to you could do a lot worse.

Thanks Pete!!

[Pete Taran]

Theo,

Glad to help. When I was making all those saw handles, I used card scrapers extensively for smoothing the flat surface of the top and bottom of the horns. There was no shortage of them because I always had offcuts from making the blades.

Patrick, to answer your question, I got that plane back around the time I sold the business to TLN. Some of the payment were for various tools, that was one. The box indicated that it came in either iron or bronze, perhaps he stopped making the iron model. Was never a fan of any of the bronze stuff as a wear surface on wood.

Since Stewart asked, I will endeavor to take some pictures tomorrow and show the 212 in action.

[Theo Hall]

Theo,

Glad to help. When I was making all those saw handles, I used card scrapers extensively for smoothing the flat surface of the top and bottom of the horns. There was no shortage of them because I always had offcuts from making the blades.

Patrick, to answer your question, I got that plane back around the time I sold the business to TLN. Some of the payment were for various tools, that was one. The box indicated that it came in either iron or bronze, perhaps he stopped making the iron model. Was never a fan of any of the bronze stuff as a wear surface on wood.

Since Stewart asked, I will endeavor to take some pictures tomorrow and show the 212 in action.

Hi Pete, and thanks again! I would love to see your 212 in-action pictures.

When you come to resharpen the 212, Pete, how do you remove the burr? Would you do it flat on a waterstone? I am treating it like a regular plane blade in my sharpening, with the only addition of rolling a burr at the end. Rather than use a file to re-establish the primary bevel, I am doing that on a Tormek t3. But your tips on re-sharpening it and the treatment of the burr would be really appreciated.

Theo

[Stewie Simpson]

Thanks Stewie, that's what I was attempting to describe. More like dust than shavings because very little material being removed. Not to say you can't use a card scraper with an agressive hook if needed for more significant material removal.

Your welcome Pat. I just watched that same Brian Boggs video. To reinforce your comments, Brian does cover the benefits of taking a lighter cut with a scraper card to protect the integrity of the finished surface. Poignant given my choice to use a smoothing plane to take the heavier shavings, and lighter cuts with a scraper plane to further refine that surface. http://www.finewoodworking.com/2005/...a-card-scraper

[Pete Taran]

Theo writes:

Hi Pete, and thanks again! I would love to see your 212 in-action pictures.

When you come to resharpen the 212, Pete, how do you remove the burr? Would you do it flat on a waterstone? I am treating it like a regular plane blade in my sharpening, with the only addition of rolling a burr at the end. Rather than use a file to re-establish the primary bevel, I am doing that on a Tormek t3. But your tips on re-sharpening it and the treatment of the burr would be really appreciated.

Theo

I never fool around with waterstones when it comes to rehabbing a scraper. Take your burnisher and roll that burr back so the back is flat. Easiest way is to clamp the blade flat on the bench and just apply pressure back and forth and it will easily roll. You can then burnish along the 45 degree bevel and then finally roll it again and use it some more. You can usually get away with this at least once. If the burr is shot and needs reworked, roll it back to the bevel side, and take a 6" mill smooth file and give a couple swipes to remove it and then stone if you feel it needs it, burnish and roll.

As I mentioned, everything is harder when you have 1/8" of steel to work with. In the pictures below you can see a standard .060" thick iron I made from some spring steel. It's easy as can be to use. Just roll a burr, I like mine to be enough that you can catch your fingernail in it. I find the easiest way to set the iron (and what I did in the pictures below) is to take the plane and put it on something dead flat, like your bandsaw table and just put the iron in and set it flush with the sole. 9 times out of 10 it will work great. Don't ask me how as it should not work, but it does. If the plane is not taking a shaving, just loosen the back knob, then the front knob by the same amount and tighten the back knob again, That will make the blade slightly more vertical and make the iron protrude just a little bit more. I didn't need to adjust mine in the pictures below. It's taking a pretty nice shaving, not quite as thick as a plane shaving, but more than you could get with a card scraper which is the point.

Testing the burr freehand:

scrape1.jpg

A little scraping:

scrape2.jpg

Nice bed of shavings:

scrape3.jpg

Hope this helps and convinces Stewart that in fact I do have a 212 and know how to use it.

[Pat Barry]

Except that that's not what he demonstrates. He's creating curls for the most part, not dust. An unhooked scraper can't do what he's demonstrating in that video, so even if that's what LN "intends" with their advice it isn't what they achieve.

Also he's demonstrating use of a card. Many of the techniques he describes simply aren't feasible with a plane like the 212. L-N's advice is inappropriate for the tool they are selling.

I'm sure LN will appreciate you getting back to them with your knowledge. Please write them a letter and tell us how it turns out.

[Derek Cohen]

Actually Pat, Patrick is correct about what the performance of the types of scraper blades. The edge off a scraper blade without a hook will scrape but not cut. The hook creates a cutting edge akin to a plane with a high angled bed. Further, the blade sans hook will dull rapidly, while the hooked edge will keep cutting.

This is very easy to test out for yourself.

Regards from Cape Town

Derek

[Pete Taran]

+1 to what Derek said. A great analogy is working at the lathe. You can scrape all day long and it leaves a dusty sort of torn look. Contrast that with the finish you get from a sharp tool like a skew or gouge. Glassy and smooth. In the first scenario you are rubbing the wood away, in the second you are cutting it.

I will admit I have not thought about the 212 in a long time, but I too am scratching my head as to what problem LN was hoping to solve by making that plane with a heavy iron? More work, more cost and harder to use and not as good results. It is really perplexing.

Pete

[Stewie Simpson]

Veritas also supply a thick 1/8" blade for their scraper plane. http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/pag...=1,310&p=48431

While Veritas promotes the use of a turned hook on their scraper blades, LN provides the user with the option of using their scraper plane with/or without a turned hook. A fact that seems to have been pushed aside within the commentary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHcgZiEOWPU

[Pat Barry]

Veritas also supply a thick 1/8" blade for their scraper plane. http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/pag...=1,310&p=48431

While Veritas promotes the use of a turned hook on their scraper blades, LN provides the user with the option of using their scraper plane with/or without a turned hook. A fact that seems to have been pushed aside within the commentary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHcgZiEOWPU

Perhaps P can reply to Deneb that dusty shavings are not what he is supposed to get from his scraping plane. Looks like he could do that right in the you tube comment section. May even get a response there.

[Stewie Simpson]

Dependant on the type of grain, and density of the timber being worked, a turned burr that's designed to take a heavier shaving can either mitigate tear-out, or it can generate it. From my perspective, (and I have no given loyalty to either LN or LV), that is the primary message being offered by LN within their range of Scraper planes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHcgZiEOWPU

As an example, the following is a high density hardwood with a patchy areas of reverse grain through out. The top surface of the timber had previously been worked flat, and free of tear-out using a double iron smoothing plane. The scrapers cutting edge was freshly reground to 45 degree bevel. That edge was then worked over the stone to a light camber, before a turned hook of 15 degrees was applied using a burnisher. Finely set, the scraper plane was then worked in both grain directions. The resulting surface was then lightly chalked to more easily highlight areas of grain tear-out.

Note; the Stanley #81 that I am using has a fixed bed of a 115 degrees. A turned hook much greater than 15 degrees would not fully engage the surface of the timber.

[Patrick Chase]

Dependant on the type of grain, and density of the timber being worked, a turned burr that's designed to take a heavier shaving can either mitigate tear-out, or it can generate it.

This is a really good point.

A turned burr and the face of the scraper behave similarly to a plane's iron and cap iron respectively: The iron or burr separates the shaving from the workpiece by cutting at a relatively low angle, and then the cap-iron or scraper face turns the shaving and "breaks" it. The size of the burr is analogous to the cap iron's setback, so if it's too big then tearout won't be prevented as well.

In a fixed-angle plane like your #81 the burr angle also determines the cutting angle (though it's not 1:1 because of the way the steel moves when the burr is formed). The further you turn the burr, the lower the cutting angle and the higher the tendency for tearout.

[Patrick Chase]

I never fool around with waterstones when it comes to rehabbing a scraper. Take your burnisher and roll that burr back so the back is flat. Easiest way is to clamp the blade flat on the bench and just apply pressure back and forth and it will easily roll. You can then burnish along the 45 degree bevel and then finally roll it again and use it some more. You can usually get away with this at least once. If the burr is shot and needs reworked, roll it back to the bevel side, and take a 6" mill smooth file and give a couple swipes to remove it and then stone if you feel it needs it, burnish and roll.

One last remark: It has been my experience that many modern made-for-the-purpose scrapers and blades are difficult to cut with most files. For example the iron that came with my #112-like LV Scraping Plane is more or less impervious to the standard Bahco mill files that I use around the shop. I have a couple boxes of hard-chromed ski files that are billed as Rc72 (same as Valtitan/Corinox, but different mfr) and that get the job done nicely. It would not surprise me if your LN's iron required similar handling.

[Pete Taran]

Patrick,

I’ve never messed with the original iron. I’m referring to the shop made iron shown in the photos. It’s easy to file with regular files. That thick, hard iron is just too difficult to deal with in my opinion.