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Thread: woodpeckers ultra-shear chisels

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn C Roberts View Post
    Harold, What is "Uhmurican"?
    Its phonetic.... if you sound it out, it should become clearer... it's a self-effacing reference to our country... I was just being flippant...
    Last edited by Harold Balzonia; 01-05-2018 at 12:06 AM. Reason: typo

  2. #32
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    I gathered that.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Lemley View Post
    Jeffrey, Your post seems to me to be on the edge of condescending...
    Jack - I certainly wasn’t intending to be condescending. I use Hunter carbide tools for hollowing where they truly excel. I’m curious: the rationale for most carbide tools according to the marketing is two-fold - they allow a turner to skip the learning curve of tradititional tools and virtually eliminate the need to sharpen. I don’t fully understand, there’s still a learning curve, it may be a little shorter, but still there. Turning with traditional tools isn’t rocket science, it is a craft. Most can pickup the concept of bevel supported cuts in a few minutes with a good explanation, the rest is mostly tool presentation and muscle memory that involves some practice. Sharpening is no different - using a jig it is literally a less than 30 second operation.
    Full disclosure - I’ve spent nearly 40 years in the business of helping companies market their products (mostly industrial). I’m well attuned to interpreting marketing speak, and have seen many solutions to problems that may not actually exist hit the marketplace. That said, there’s always room for new ideas and tools to make entry a little easier. Markets do have a way of sorting out the solutions from the rest.
    I have no desire to hijack this thread, and merely pointed out that shortening an already short learning curve may not be the best rationale for investing in a new tool.

  4. #34
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    I'll toss in my $0.02. I took a look at the WP site, and noted that all(?) of the tools seem to have the tips oriented on a square shaft on an edge. VERY nice tools. I'm now contemplating the diamond full sharp tool. Personally, when I do use a carbide, its flat on the rest, where a square shaft on a corner makes it difficult to maintain it "perfectly" flat. When sheer scraping, I hold my scrapers at a much higher angle than 45, again making the square edge not at the correct angle. This however would hold true in any case. Major point, when roughing with a carbide, I hold it flat. I would prefer to have the tool not make me maintain the tool flat, just another stressor I would not like. Oh, those of you using cast tool rests, the square edge will make dent marks. I made a carbide tool on a square shaft on edge. Was not entirely pleased as you may have noticed. Good luck in your search!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey J Smith View Post
    ....shortening an already short learning curve may not be the best rationale for investing in a new tool.
    Sharpening can be so quick and easy - once you know how. I'm always surprised by those who haven't learned to sharpen, some even after years of turning. I've had some visit for a turning lesson and found what they needed instead was a sharpening lesson. The old adage is "if you can't sharpen, you can't turn." I'll change that to if you can't sharpen you may be handicapped in what and how well you turn. I'm all for anything, even a cheap carbide tool, that gets people started in woodturning as long as they realize advancement to excellence might be hindered without moving towards well-sharpened tools. In fact I know of one advanced turning course you cannot even get into unless you are self-sufficient at sharpening.

    That said, if anyone living near or driving through east TN is interested in help with sharpening or using "conventional" turning tools, please stop in. The cost is your company and a good story.

    JKJ

  6. #36
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    Some more thoughts:
    1. If you try a carbide tool, like Woodpeckers or any other, make sure you take into account the "newness" of the carbide. My Easywood tool, when used right out of the box, was quite sharp and produced a very good surface. But after a few uses, it was 'good but not great.' I still use it occasionally when I am against a troublesome piece of wood, but I use it for roughing and not finishing. Hand sharpening on a diamond hone helps but I never got back the original sharpness.
    2. Seems to me that a DIY approach using a round shaft would allow you to put a shear angle on the Woodpecker insert quite easily.
    3. To me the bar is set by the Hunter tools. I can get a very nice surface with his original tools although I haven't used the Osprey, Hercules types. So the Woodpeckers tools would need to beat them, not other scraping type tools, to attract me as a buyer. (with the exception of the diamond sharp point insert, which does look cool. )

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Iwamoto View Post
    I'll toss in my $0.02. I took a look at the WP site, and noted that all(?) of the tools seem to have the tips oriented on a square shaft on an edge. VERY nice tools. I'm now contemplating the diamond full sharp tool. Personally, when I do use a carbide, its flat on the rest, where a square shaft on a corner makes it difficult to maintain it "perfectly" flat. When sheer scraping, I hold my scrapers at a much higher angle than 45, again making the square edge not at the correct angle. This however would hold true in any case. Major point, when roughing with a carbide, I hold it flat. I would prefer to have the tool not make me maintain the tool flat, just another stressor I would not like. Oh, those of you using cast tool rests, the square edge will make dent marks. I made a carbide tool on a square shaft on edge. Was not entirely pleased as you may have noticed. Good luck in your search!
    I believe the bottom of the tool where it would sit on the rest is flat. So I don't think you are ever resting the tool on the edge of the shaft. The end of the tools look to be flats on bottom, 45, and 90, at least for the square chisel anyway.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey J Smith View Post
    Jack - I certainly wasn’t intending to be condescending. I use Hunter carbide tools for hollowing where they truly excel. I’m curious: the rationale for most carbide tools according to the marketing is two-fold - they allow a turner to skip the learning curve of tradititional tools and virtually eliminate the need to sharpen. I don’t fully understand, there’s still a learning curve, it may be a little shorter, but still there. Turning with traditional tools isn’t rocket science, it is a craft. Most can pickup the concept of bevel supported cuts in a few minutes with a good explanation, the rest is mostly tool presentation and muscle memory that involves some practice. Sharpening is no different - using a jig it is literally a less than 30 second operation.
    Full disclosure - I’ve spent nearly 40 years in the business of helping companies market their products (mostly industrial). I’m well attuned to interpreting marketing speak, and have seen many solutions to problems that may not actually exist hit the marketplace. That said, there’s always room for new ideas and tools to make entry a little easier. Markets do have a way of sorting out the solutions from the rest.
    I have no desire to hijack this thread, and merely pointed out that shortening an already short learning curve may not be the best rationale for investing in a new tool.
    Well, since we can't resist discussing sharpening, let me throw in a novices two cents that reflects my situation:

    I bought an old craftsman lathe that's about 25 years old. By quality standards it's not great. OK maybe. It is all cast, digital variable speed with a long bed (~42" I think). Good enough to learn on and it only cost me $75. It came with a cheap set of brand new chinese knives I got the guy to throw in with the deal. I bought it because of the price, not because I was anxious to get into turning. I am a hobbyist woodworker that does pretty good, but I don't really like turned legs all that much, or spindles in general. Now I'd like to make a few bowls and maybe some wood machine gadget thingies. So I thought I'd give it try.

    I looked into sharpening needs, and a good grinder with CBN wheels and a one-way tool sharpening system would cost me about $600. Hmm.... I'm I ready to make that kind of commitment to turning? Now I suspect the chinese tools would just lead to frustrations. So, do I layout another $300 - $400 for some basic beginner chisels. Now I'm in for $1000.

    So I hand sharpened the chinese chisels and turned some practice spindles, and one little bowl. The bowl came out quite nice, I think for a beginner. I quickly picked up some basic cutting angles and it seemed pretty easy, hardly any catches, even when roughing (though I was scared to death of thing at first, roughing is pretty violent!). But I know the tools are not sharpened like they should be, and it may not be possible to ever get them all that sharp, at least not for very long. But at least I got a taste for it. And like it enough to continue working at it.

    My next thought was if I had sharp chisels I'd be more effective and would get more satisfaction from this. A carbide set seemed like a mimimal investment to get there, and a good carbide set would be wanted in the future anyway should I really decide to take the plunge. I don't want to buy nice HSS tools and then hack them up because I don't have a good sharpening system, and I don't want to yet invest $600 in a sharpening station to only find out I don't really like this sport. So it seemed like there were 2 options: the carbides or $1000 for the full blown HSS setup.

    Now after I gain more experience I may find I want get into this in a bigger, higher quality way. Then I'd make the plunge for the HSS setup, and like get a real lathe too. I do appreciate the value of good tools. Anyway, that's my story and rationale. BTW, I bought the Woodpeckers. I haven't gotten them yet. But when I do I will post back with better photos (can't believe how little info WP has on them), and my opinion on how they work (for what that's worth).
    Last edited by tom lucas; 01-05-2018 at 4:32 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Nathal View Post
    Some more thoughts:
    1. If you try a carbide tool, like Woodpeckers or any other, make sure you take into account the "newness" of the carbide. My Easywood tool, when used right out of the box, was quite sharp and produced a very good surface. But after a few uses, it was 'good but not great.' I still use it occasionally when I am against a troublesome piece of wood, but I use it for roughing and not finishing. Hand sharpening on a diamond hone helps but I never got back the original sharpness.
    2. Seems to me that a DIY approach using a round shaft would allow you to put a shear angle on the Woodpecker insert quite easily.
    3. To me the bar is set by the Hunter tools. I can get a very nice surface with his original tools although I haven't used the Osprey, Hercules types. So the Woodpeckers tools would need to beat them, not other scraping type tools, to attract me as a buyer. (with the exception of the diamond sharp point insert, which does look cool. )

    I do like the little hunter cutter blade. Looks pretty handy for tight inside curves. One or more of these will be on my futures list.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas lucas View Post
    ...

    I looked into sharpening needs, and a good grinder with CBN wheels and a one-way tool sharpening system would cost me about $600.
    While CBN wheels (as low as $100-150 for a single wheel) and a fancy, low speed, 8" grinder is wonderful to work with, it's far from necessary. A basic 6" grinder with a couple of standard aluminum oxide wheels (which you can probably find for $50 used locally) is more than adequate to get started and dip your toes in the water. While I did splurge on CBN wheels for my grinding set up (don't worry, they're on a 30 year old 6" grinder-- I didn't splurge THAT much), I still free hand it. The Wolverine (and similar) sharpening jigs look great, but I've found I can do plenty with a steady hand and touch up a gouge in 20 seconds flat. I don't like grinding/sharpening any more than the next guy, but turning with a freshly sharpened gouge is so much more pleasant, easier, and less work than forcing a dull gouge to do the job.

    Long story short, sharpening can be as cheap and simple as you make it-- or as complex and expensive as your budget allows.

    Chipping in on the carbide discussion-- I have not used the Woodpecker tools, but I would agree with a few others-- 90%+ of my carbide tool use is during roughing. I find I can leave a better surface these days with other tools in my arsenal.
    Licensed Professional Engineer,
    Unlicensed Semi Professional Tinkerer

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas lucas View Post
    Well, since we can't resist discussing sharpening,
    Thomas - I started about 18 years ago with a Craftsman lathe with reeves drive and a set of Buck Bros tools that had already seen better days. Found an old, very cheap 6” grinder left in my studio by a client. figured out that sharp bad tools are much easier to use than dull ones. The first real pull from the vortex came when Woodcraft started selling an 8” low speed grinder with decent AO wheels for $79.
    The pull of the vortex then became an unresistable force. Please take care, and enjoy the ride. Your local club may offer some mentors that can help in avoiding the worst of the bumps.

  12. #42
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    Thanks Jeff,

    I have a grinder in my garage (300 feet from my woodshop) that I use for metal work. I also have a wet grinder, but I can't use it in the winter time (when I do most of my WW) because my shop is not heated all the time and the wheel would likely split at the first hard freeze. I may get another cheap grinder and put it in the woodshop so I can practice on those cheap tools. But I don't have the steadiest of hands these days. We'll see. The carbides let me show results quickly, which motivates me more than having to fuss with those cheap chisels all the time. A little of both and maybe the vortex will suck me in too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey J Smith View Post
    Thomas - I started about 18 years ago with a Craftsman lathe with reeves drive and a set of Buck Bros tools that had already seen better days. Found an old, very cheap 6” grinder left in my studio by a client. figured out that sharp bad tools are much easier to use than dull ones. The first real pull from the vortex came when Woodcraft started selling an 8” low speed grinder with decent AO wheels for $79.
    The pull of the vortex then became an unresistable force. Please take care, and enjoy the ride. Your local club may offer some mentors that can help in avoiding the worst of the bumps.

  13. #43
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    Thomas - enjoy the ride. A large part of the original appeal of turning for me was the ability to actually complete a project on the same day it was started. I actually didn’t discover this for a little while. The allure of near-instant gratification is, for me, a large part of the vortex. Enjoy the ride...

  14. #44
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    Hunter tools

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas lucas View Post
    I do like the little hunter cutter blade. Looks pretty handy for tight inside curves. One or more of these will be on my futures list.
    Thomas,

    If you get a Hunter tool, one thing I recommend is to round and polish the heel of the "bevel", such as evident this picture,
    hunter_hercules_mod.jpg
    also on the tool at the top of the left picture in this thread. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...19#post2761819

    This allows it to glide nicely into a cove or convex cut without the heel getting in the way or burnishing a mark. I've done this to most of my hunter tools now. (This is the same thing I do to spindle and bowl gouges)

    Also note that the tools in the picture in the thread (the two Hercules, the small Osprey, and a Clewes Mate) all have the bit angled a little from the horizontal. This makes it much easier to use in the bevel-rubbing mode like a gouge than those without the angle. With these tools I can usually get a cut so clean on small turnings (with good wood) that they need no coarser than 400 or even finer sand paper. Works well in the hardest wood you can imagine as well as acrylic.

    All of the angle-bit tools can also be used in the scraper mode, holding the tool flat on the rest. The two Hercules tools, the Clewes, and the new Viceroy all have flats on the bottom with slightly radiused corners making this a bit easier; the Ospreys are built on a round shaft.

    Which one to buy? If you mostly want to use it for large work the large Hercules might be a good choice. But I generally I prefer the smaller Hercules, for things from very small to large. The Osprey is similar but I don't like it as well as the Hercules. I don't much care for the Clewes Mate but beginners seem to like it for the clean scraping mode and the wide flat. If working on deep vessels a different tool might be as good or better, can't remember the name but it's a large tool with a stout taper on the working end. There are also swan neck versions for getting up under the lip on a vessel or closed form. For hollowing small things Mike's set of small straight and crooked end tools are what I reach although I have other tools that will work. Mark StLeger said he prefers these also.

    If you belong to a club I suspect there are members that will let you try the tools before you buy. You could come here (I think I have all or most of them) but it's a bit of a drive!

    All these are without handles but a handle is easy to make. When ordering, you might also get an extra cutter. The cutters are extremely sharp but one touch to another steel object will make tiny chips. The cutters can be repeatedly rotated to a fresh edge. I make cutter protectors from clear flexible plastic tubing that fits tightly over the ends of the tool - I make the tubing a bit long, soften the end with a heat gun, then squeeze it together with some pliers.

    John Lucas has some videos on using some of the Hunter tools.

    I don't know if you saw it but this message tells about a novice student of mine who used the small Hunter Hercules to turn most of a fairly challenging small platter:
    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...nce-at-a-lathe
    The curves in this piece are not tight but the tool sure does the trick. I generally alternate between the Hercules and bowl and spindle gouges since each has their own strengths (and I don't want to get "rusty" on either!)

    JKJ

  15. #45
    Hello, I have a question did you finally buy Woodpeckers ultra shear gouges? Now I’m in the same situation and looks like there’s no much information about it yet.
    greetings.

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