Sawstop Saga - like an episode of Columbo

[Dale Murray]

Just over a week ago I cut some aluminum on my Sawstop ICS - totally uneventful. Once I was done I gave it a very thorough cleaning and put it away.

Tuesday:
This past Tuesday my saw would not start - turn on the power and immediately get a solid red light indicating I need to replace the brake. Brake had not fired.
I pulled the brake, put it back - same error.
I installed the dado brake - same error.
I again, completely cleaned the saw using my air compressor to blow out every nook and cranny while also running the DC to collect it all. Powered it on, same error.

Did some internet searching - nothing conclusive.
Called and left a message with Sawstop.

Went back to the saw, gave it one last shot and it fired up. Everything seemed fine.

I used the saw for several hours, even changed brakes for a dado cut, and it was great.

Took a break for dinner and when I returned, solid red light.
I did a bit of fiddling and it fired up again - nothing conclusive, however.
I set it up for a cut - 45* on the blade and solid red light again. This time no amount of anything would get it to work.

Wednesday:
Sawstop called me back, we discuss the issue and they believe it is the power supply to the brake - which is housed in the switch box. I get home from work, call them, they talk me through opening the box and checking a few things. In the end he is convinced it is the switch box and I should call the next day to order a new one.

Thursday:
I call to order a new switch box. The tech looks through my notes and suggests I try something else - there could be schmutz between a component and the arbor. This is the ribbon cable attached to the bottom side of the arbor and a massive pain to get at. He suggests I loosen the screws holding it in place and blow it out with compressed air.
- I identify the part, blow it out. Same issue - solid red light.
- I loosen the screws, blot it out. Same issue - solid red light.
- I completely remove it, blow it out, wipe it down, buy it drinks and ask about its family. Same issue - solid red light.

Friday:
I call to order a new switch box. The tech (same person as the day before) looks through my notes and suggests I try something else; he is not convinced it is the switch box. Sends me new instructions.

This is where I am getting a bit upset.
1. I have called three times and been given three different trouble shooting steps over the course of three days. Why not give me a series of troubleshooting steps on the first day?
2. In all three calls it is either Switch Box ($125) or the cabling between the Box, Brake, and Arbor ($48), but they are not entirely sure.
3a. If I order both parts and find replacing the cabling fixes the issue I cannot return the switch box - parts are non-refundable.
3b. ... Tech support tells a customer what they need to replace to fix the saw and if it turns out the part was not the issue the customer is out the money; this does not sit well with me.
4. It is now day 3 of the saga and I have been given a definitive diagnostic test to determine the issue; why did it take three days to give me this test? Why not START WITH THIS TEST SINCE I WAS ALREADY INSIDE THE SWITCH BOX ON DAY 1?

So, tonight I will do the definitive test but cannot order whatever part I need until Tuesday. With shipping and the holiday I will not get the part until January 8th - 13 days after initial contact.

I am not a Sawstop evangelist - I only bought it because I could get it cheaper (used) than the Unisaw I had my eye on. The saw has been great and still is. The issue I have is Tech support keeps sending me back to the well with "just one more thing" to test before we know for sure. That is not good customer service.

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"Oh, there is just one more thing..."

[Mike Wilkins]

If there is a way to bypass the cartridge safety feature and use the saw as usual, give it a try. But that would defeat the premise why Sawstop owners get this machine in the first place.
This is the reason why I bypassed the SS in favor of a sliding table saw.

[Nick Decker]

Sorry to hear it and I have no clue, but I enjoyed the part about buying it drinks and asking about the family.

[Julie Moriarty]

Once Mr. Gass tried to get legislation passed to mandate that his technology be used in all table saws, he lost me. Be vigilant and use good safety practices and flesh sensing technology isn't necessary.

To now hear about the electronics failing and the company refusing to accept returns on unused parts, it just confirms my belief Mr. Gass is more interested in profits than safety.

Sorry to hear about your table saw woes, Dale. I hope you can find a work around and maybe find a way to divorce yourself from Sawstop.

[Bill McNiel]

=- I completely remove it, blow it out, wipe it down, buy it drinks and ask about its family. Same issue - solid red light.

Now that was FUNNY!!!!

[Will Allen]

This is why I avoid buying anything that is so technically advanced. The up side is minimal and the downside is that you cant fix anything by yourself or easily.
I fixed my dryer today. Older model with no circuit boards or fancy gadgetry. Forty bucks for a part I diagnosed with a multimeter and I'm good to go.

I do the same with the vehicles I drive and the equipment I use to make a living.

[Simon MacGowen]

Once Mr. Gass tried to get legislation passed to mandate that his technology be used in all table saws, he lost me. Be vigilant and use good safety practices and flesh sensing technology isn't necessary.

To now hear about the electronics failing and the company refusing to accept returns on unused parts, it just confirms my belief Mr. Gass is more interested in profits than safety.

Sorry to hear about your table saw woes, Dale. I hope you can find a work around and maybe find a way to divorce yourself from Sawstop.

First, it was a pain just to read through the OP's story. Frustrating...but unfortunately machine diagnostics are not always as straightforward and simple as they sound.

Second, are you kidding me, Julie? Still upset by Mr. Gass? Did you know you are barking the wrong tree now? SawStop is no longer his baby. He sold it to the family of Festool in case you don't know.

No saws or vendors are perfect. At least these SawStop technicians did try to help, but admittedly as the OP's post pointed out, they should have provided the definitive test right from the start.

Can anyone give me an example of a vendor that has never screwed up before, despite how well it is run and the stellar reputation it may enjoy? Just one please?

Before anyone asks, yes I am a SawStop owner and have used both the Ind. and PCS saws with full satisfaction for over 10 years. (Now, it wouldn't be a very smart question to ask how many fingers I still have on each hand.)

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

This is why I avoid buying anything that is so technically advanced. The up side is minimal and the downside is that you cant fix anything by yourself or easily.
I fixed my dryer today. Older model with no circuit boards or fancy gadgetry. Forty bucks for a part I diagnosed with a multimeter and I'm good to go.

I do the same with the vehicles I drive and the equipment I use to make a living.

I can only partially agree with you.

Phones and computers are much much better today than their old grandparents.

But, vehicle safety is definitely one area I disagree with you on your observations. A friend of mine fell asleep behind the steering wheel last month on a highway in NY state and when he woke up, he saw fire engines and ambulance. He hit the back of a truck parked on the shoulder lane traveling at well over 65 mph (according to the state police estimate). One of the passengers died and he wishes (probably for the rest of his life) that he had driven his wife's car -- a less-than-one-year-old car with a pre-collision brake system, among all other advanced safety warning features.

I never cut my finger on the tablesaw before I got the SawStop. I never have had one single car accident, let alone falling asleep behind the steering wheel (I started driving in the early 70s), but I am now planning to get a new car in the new year that comes with the pre-collision brake system (a feature that was previously available only to luxury or high end cars).

Simon

[Ben Rivel]

Exactly why I would never even trust cutting a conductive material on a saw that has a flesh detection system that uses conductivity. My woodworking saws are just for wood. Metal saws for metal. I know many here have done it, but it just sounds like a bad idea in my head and I wouldnt attempt it.

[Simon MacGowen]

Exactly why I would never even trust cutting a conductive material on a saw that has a flesh detection system that uses conductivity. My woodworking saws are just for wood. Metal saws for metal. I know many here have done it, but it just sounds like a bad idea in my head and I wouldnt attempt it.

+1

I wouldn't even cut aluminum on my mitresaw even though the manual says I could do that with a metal blade.

When I bypass my SawStop for selective cuts, I am extremely cautious and use all safety aids available to me.

Simon

[Dale Murray]

My initial intention was not to buy a Sawstop, I was aiming for a Unisaw but I found this one (Sawstop ICS 3hp with 52" fence and mobile base) in near mint condition for $250 less than a new Unisaw, I figured it was worth it.

more ranting
- Mechanically I have ABSOLUTELY no issues with the saw, it is built like a tank and been splendid. The mobile base is a dream to use.
- Electronically, I am not going to complain to loudly; this is the very first issue I have had with it.
- Actual troubleshooting when the time arrises leaves a bit to be desired.

First day I was on the phone with tech they had me access the "Switch Box" to check something.
Second day they have me screwing around with a screw driver on the arbor.
Third day (today) I will be accessing the "Switch Box" AGAIN.

Guess what, I could have done todays test two days ago and already ordered my parts and be running next week. Instead I am doing it tonight and, even if I ordered parts today, they will not go out until Tuesday which means they will not arrive until the week of the 13th.

It makes ABSOLUTELY no sense that I need to contact them three times for troubleshooting. I've worked in IT for 20 years, I understand trouble shooting. I understand process. I understand documentation. I understand "If this then that".

I can go to the sites of Microsoft, Juniper, all flavors of Linux, and find massive amounts of documentation covering all forms of troubleshooting that I can freely access and test. This is not the case with Sawstop.

thoughtful ranting
Sawstop seemingly want to be the gateway for all information, which I can understand, but if doing to is a hinderance to their current, and future, customers it is going to hinder growth and satisfaction.

Generally, woodworkers and logical and thoughtful people. We have a well developed understanding of our machines and the logic behind them. What we don't like is a gate keeper putting the brakes on any potential progress or project because our issue is outside the hours of 6:30am - 5pm pacific time between Monday and Friday. I would wager most of us have day jobs and families. Most of us are not freely available to chat on the phone with support while standing at our tools.


ultimately
- I assure you, I did point out my issues with their method of troubleshooting and lack of access to such documentation.
- I will also assure you I will be writing up an instructional document outlining the steps I've been instructed to take and posting them on the internet so others may benefit from this. No need for them to immediately, and repeatedly, visit the wizard in the tower for additional instruction.
- I feel a bit sorry for the person handling their facebook messages - they just got an earful.

I doubt I will do any further conversing with component pieces of this device; nice conversation gained me nothing last night. I will perform the test, put the saw away for a week, and enjoy a great many cocktails.

[Dale Murray]

Exactly why I would never even trust cutting a conductive material on a saw that has a flesh detection system that uses conductivity. My woodworking saws are just for wood. Metal saws for metal. I know many here have done it, but it just sounds like a bad idea in my head and I wouldnt attempt it.

Documentation stated it is totally fine to do so; I did my research before doing so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing it, just very messy.

[Dale Murray]

I completely remove it, blow it out, wipe it down, buy it drinks and ask about its family. Same issue - solid red light.

Now that was FUNNY!!!!

Glad you both enjoyed it. I try to have fun when I am annoyed.

[Dale Murray]

To now hear about the electronics failing and the company refusing to accept returns on unused parts...

Sorry to hear about your table saw woes, Dale. I hope you can find a work around and maybe find a way to divorce yourself from Sawstop.

If I were willy nilly buying parts then wanted to return them I could understand the policy. If they recommend I buy the part and it does not work, they should be willing to take it back.

I won't divorce myself from Sawstop - mechanically the machine is great. I may, however, divorce myself from the technology by rewiring it like a normal saw if I have future issues.

Honestly, I believe it is the wire causing the issue, not the Switch Box.

[Dale Murray]

This is why I avoid buying anything that is so technically advanced.

This is not a terribly difficult machine to understand. Honestly, it is brilliant in its simplicity. The brains of the operation are in the brake cartridge - its what does all the computing. Troubleshooting should be no more difficult than:
a. getting diagnostic code (mine is 24)
b. reference a lookup table for code 24.
c. follow steps to find root cause of code 24.

No different than pulling a code on your car with an OBDII tool.