Beginner Questions on Chip Carving

[Philipp Jaindl]

<p>
Greetings from Austria, I am new to the forum and new to Chip Carving and got a few questions on the matter, that some more experienced folks can hopefully help me with. Heres the Knives (2 Pfeil and 1 Stubai) https://puu.sh/yOhJz/3ee7afab4d.jpg and Carving i did so far https://puu.sh/yJ7mt/eb48567364.jpg and https://puu.sh/yJ7pV/ff31938da4.jpg</p>
<p>
Now to the Questions</p>
<p>
1.) How do you carve in terms of Workholding and &quot;posture&quot; for lack of a better term, do you carve on a table? workbench? sitting? Wayne Barton says in his book to sit down and hold the piece in your lap i find that works well for reasonably big pieces of Wood but im having trouble holding on to smaller practice boards that way.</p>
<p>
2.)How do you use the longer knives properly? theres a lot of material on how to hold shorter knives (Waynes Book, Youtube etc.), but i didnt really find anything on how to use the Knives with longer blades like the Stubai in the picture linked above, or the other traditional german style knives. Reason im asking is that the short Pfeil knife is too wide to get around tight turns without chatter, the Stubai has a good shape for that but due to its lenght i cant use the same technique very well.</p>
<p>
3.)Sharpening, again im a bit confused Wayne says that the correct angle to sharpen is no secondary bevel at the beginning of his book but goes on to sharpen a secondary bevel at 10 degree either side in the sharpening section. So whats the right way now? shallow secondary bevel or no? What kinda Edge geometry and angle range am i aiming for? i got plenty experience with Chisels, Kitchen+general purpose Knives however just about none concerning chip carving knives.</p>
<p>
I got a whole range of Diamond stones (Eze-Lap, DMT) from 150 to 8000 Grit, a couple older Waterstones and some strops with different compounds from Aluminium Oxide to 1micron Diamond paste available to me.</p>
<p>
4.)Which knife do you use mainly? I like the steel of both the Stubai and the Pfeil but i dont find the handles comfortable for longer periods of carving. So I am kinda looking for something a little more ergonomic, any recommendations you could give me or should i try to make a new handle for the knives i do have? Please keep in mind I am from europe so a source that ships over here would be much appreciated.</p>
<p>
I hope my english is understandable enough, Regards Philipp.</p>

[John K Jordan]

<p>
Greetings from Austria, I am new to the forum and new to Chip Carving and got a few questions on the matter, that some more experienced folks can hopefully help me with. Heres the Knives (2 Pfeil and 1 Stubai) https://puu.sh/yOhJz/3ee7afab4d.jpg and Carving i did so far https://puu.sh/yJ7mt/eb48567364.jpg and https://puu.sh/yJ7pV/ff31938da4.jpg</p>
<p>
Now to the Questions</p>
<p>
1.) How do you carve in terms of Workholding and "posture" for lack of a better term, do you carve on a table? workbench? sitting? Wayne Barton says in his book to sit down and hold the piece in your lap i find that works well for reasonably big pieces of Wood but im having trouble holding on to smaller practice boards that way.</p>
<p>
2.)How do you use the longer knives properly? theres a lot of material on how to hold shorter knives (Waynes Book, Youtube etc.), but i didnt really find anything on how to use the Knives with longer blades like the Stubai in the picture linked above, or the other traditional german style knives. Reason im asking is that the short Pfeil knife is too wide to get around tight turns without chatter, the Stubai has a good shape for that but due to its lenght i cant use the same technique very well.</p>
<p>
3.)Sharpening, again im a bit confused Wayne says that the correct angle to sharpen is no secondary bevel at the beginning of his book but goes on to sharpen a secondary bevel at 10 degree either side in the sharpening section. So whats the right way now? shallow secondary bevel or no? What kinda Edge geometry and angle range am i aiming for? i got plenty experience with Chisels, Kitchen+general purpose Knives however just about none concerning chip carving knives.</p>
<p>
I got a whole range of Diamond stones (Eze-Lap, DMT) from 150 to 8000 Grit, a couple older Waterstones and some strops with different compounds from Aluminium Oxide to 1micron Diamond paste available to me.</p>
<p>
4.)Which knife do you use mainly? I like the steel of both the Stubai and the Pfeil but i dont find the handles comfortable for longer periods of carving. So I am kinda looking for something a little more ergonomic, any recommendations you could give me or should i try to make a new handle for the knives i do have? Please keep in mind I am from europe so a source that ships over here would be much appreciated.</p>
<p>
I hope my english is understandable enough, Regards Philipp.</p>

Philipp,

I'm certainly not an expert or even very experienced but I enjoy chip carving. I practiced for a month or so then started on some projects. This is some of my flat practice:
practice_comp.jpg

I primarily am interested on carving on things I turn round on the lathe:

chip_carved_goblet_c.jpg BOC_A_comp.jpg BOC_C_Jack_01_IMG_6687.jpg
but I did carve a flat sign for my shop (this is a humorous play on the phrase "This place is a mess"):
chip_mess.jpg
Besides the practice, this is the only flat thing I've made.

I mostly use these two knives.
chip_carving_knives.jpg
The first one is a Barton and the second one is from My Chip Carving they call "Modified". It has a slightly narrower blade so it is easier to do curves. The third knife I use is a Hock. It is also good for curves.

I tried a lot of sharpening things. The knives are worthless as sold so I used some coarse diamond stones to get the shape I wanted. I measured the angles as which my three knives came out. Note that the light makes the knives look horribly scratched in this photo but they are not - they are quite smooth and mirror-like at the edge, I just didn't polish the sides to a mirror.
chip_carving_knife_angles.jpg

After the initial shaping I sharpen on the kit sold by My Chip Carving. It uses four successively finer strips of very good adhesive-backed abrasive paper. I followed their sharpening instructions. They have a video: http://mychipcarving.com/product_inf...ening-kit-p-77

I don't specifically put a secondary bevel on the blades but I do strop with polishing abrasive on a pigskin stropping board which probably adds a micro rounded bevel. These knives cut so smoothly. I know that some experts say they never strop.

I work on a table.
chip_ornament_carvingIMG_43.jpg

If you like the steel on the two knives I think it would be best to make new handles. I'm happy with the handles of the knives I have but I don't usually carve for long periods of time. I've never tried a longer knife.

Your English is very good.

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

Also, you might be interested in seeing some of Bill Johnson's work: http://www.carolinamountainreefs.com...d-aquatic.html

I sent him some basswood things I turned on the lathe and he carved on them.

penta_pl_basswood.jpg bill_johnson_in_progress.jpg
(This small platter is one shaped like these.)
penta_plates_comp_small.jpg

I also made a basswood goblet and some ornaments to carve on but I didn't see the the carvings
chip_goblet_basswood.jpg

Bill might be willing to answer some questions by email.

By the way, it is trickier to carve on curved things. For example, depending on the curvature to get flat sides on a chip you have to move the knife along a curve. Also, when carving on steep curves there is a tendency for the wood to break since as you get further away from the "equator" you are moving towards end grain instead of side grain. But since everyone carves on flat things I wanted to carve on wood turnings! (I ordered slabs of Northern Basswood from Wisconsin to get pieces thick enough to turn on the lathe.)

JKJ

[Philipp Jaindl]

<p>
Thanks for the reply John, thats some very nice carving you have there i like the jars and the goblet.</p>
<p>
So as i understand it you flat-ground your knives down to 0 (meaning 1 single bevel from spine to edge), an around 10&deg; edge angle just seems to accute and flimsy. Are there no issues with the edge rolling over or chipping ? If i ground out the secondary bevel on my knife it would most likely get too thin and warp the edge during grinding or in use.</p>
<p>
In theory if i placed it flat on the existing bevel and took it down till the secondary bevel was gone id end up with something like 7 or at best 8 degrees of Edge angle, i dont think i got a way around a very very shallow secondary bevel but a secondary bevel none the less. Dont have any jigs either that would guarantee an angle to get it to 10 degrees, i freehand grind just about anything.</p>
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I watched the sharpening video of mychipcarving, he says he raises the blade ever so slightly which again puts a secondary bevel on or is that sandpaper soft enough to get a convex bevel?</p>
<p>
Dont think i could easily get my hands on a Barton or &quot;Modified&quot; knife, but i think i can get a hock blade. Probably gonna think on this some more.</p>

[John K Jordan]

<p>
Thanks for the reply John, thats some very nice carving you have there i like the jars and the goblet.</p>
<p>
So as i understand it you flat-ground your knives down to 0 (meaning 1 single bevel from spine to edge), an around 10° edge angle just seems to accute and flimsy. Are there no issues with the edge rolling over or chipping ? If i ground out the secondary bevel on my knife it would most likely get too thin and warp the edge during grinding or in use.</p>
<p>
In theory if i placed it flat on the existing bevel and took it down till the secondary bevel was gone id end up with something like 7 or at best 8 degrees of Edge angle, i dont think i got a way around a very very shallow secondary bevel but a secondary bevel none the less. Dont have any jigs either that would guarantee an angle to get it to 10 degrees, i freehand grind just about anything.</p>
<p>
I watched the sharpening video of mychipcarving, he says he raises the blade ever so slightly which again puts a secondary bevel on or is that sandpaper soft enough to get a convex bevel?</p>
<p>
Dont think i could easily get my hands on a Barton or "Modified" knife, but i think i can get a hock blade. Probably gonna think on this some more.</p>

If you look closely at the diagram I drew the bevel angle changes part way down the blade so the bottom part of the blade might be considered a wide secondary bevel.. I can't remember now exactly how I measured those angles since it was a couple of years ago. I'm pretty sure I didn't grind flat all the way to the spine since that would have been harder to keep flat. I can measure again if you want but I don't think the exact angle makes much difference. A wider angle would make a bit more resistance in the wood but if sharp enough it should still work fine. Since the chips are generally very shallow we are only cutting with a very tiny part of the blade right at the tip - the rest of the bland is just for strength and never even touches the wood.

Also, I do all the sharpening by hand and TRY to hold the knife to get a flat side. Of course holding it perfectly at the same angle is impossible so the whole blade is probably slightly convex. I can get out the knives and look at them more closely and look at them with a microscope if you want.

The abrasive on that sandpaper is on a fairly hard plastic backing but I think it is probably soft enough to make a slightly convex bevel, especially with the stropping afterwards. I haven't looked at thee blades that closely - I just shaped, sharpened, and cut with them. They cut very well and I've never chipped one.

When one feels dull I strop them again without going back to the sandpaper - just two or three strokes. If the knife did feel dull because of a microscopic rolled edge the stropping fixed it. I have only carved in basswood and it's pretty soft. Do you use basswood (linden)?

I also have a sharpness testing machine I want to use the next time I carve to check the edge when the knife starts to feel dull. It would be nice to see what the actual sharpness number is before and after stropping.

JKJ

[Philipp Jaindl]

Its not necessary to get the microscope out thanks for the offer though, I know now what kinda geometry im aiming for. As soon as i feel it getting duller i only strop them aswell mostly no need to get back to the stones. Yes, here the primary wood for Carving is by far Linden (Basswood), lovely wood to work with. My sharpness testing machine are my fingertips, but it would be interessting to see how yours works never heard about something like that . Philipp.

[John K Jordan]

...My sharpness testing machine are my fingertips, but it would be interessting to see how yours works never heard about something like that . Philipp.

I just found out about this tester earlier this year.

The EdgeOnUp tester measures the force needed to cut through a calibrated fiber. http://www.edgeonup.com/index.html
I think I have the PT50b model. It is very consistent with a single-edged razor blade. I think it is aimed at knife makers. We often check sharpness by finger tip, finger nail, shaving a few arm hairs or by cutting something to see how "well" it cuts. But it's nice to have numbers to compare things more objectively.

I have a belt-based knife sharpening machine and I've used it to test the knives after sharpening. While they are extremely sharp and can easily slice thin strips from a piece of paper held vertically, the sharpness tester shows they are not nearly as sharp as a chip-carving knife.

Friend and woodturner John Lucas used the tester recently to evaluate some lathe tool sharpening and wrote an article to be published in a turning magazine.

JKJ

[Philipp Jaindl]

I just found out about this tester earlier this year.

The EdgeOnUp tester measures the force needed to cut through a calibrated fiber. http://www.edgeonup.com/index.html
I think I have the PT50b model. It is very consistent with a single-edged razor blade. I think it is aimed at knife makers. We often check sharpness by finger tip, finger nail, shaving a few arm hairs or by cutting something to see how "well" it cuts. But it's nice to have numbers to compare things more objectively.

I have a belt-based knife sharpening machine and I've used it to test the knives after sharpening. While they are extremely sharp and can easily slice thin strips from a piece of paper held vertically, the sharpness tester shows they are not nearly as sharp as a chip-carving knife.

Friend and woodturner John Lucas used the tester recently to evaluate some lathe tool sharpening and wrote an article to be published in a turning magazine.

JKJ

I'm not too fond of machines for sharpening, especially on thin blades its just too easy to overheat, besides im not really any slower with my benchstones. I havent tried a proper beltsander made for sharpening but the way i have been taught drysharpening is a massive no-go, dont have the money to buy one or a Tormek either way.
And im more then happy with the results i get of my benchstones and the strop.

Keep me up to date im really curious what kinda numbers you get out of that Tester.