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Thread: Mortiser or Router?

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    If you don't have the room, then a slot mortiser that is router based makes sense.
    All of the machines discussed so far will cut accurate enough mortises that once glued will hold better than the wood fibers surrounding it.
    However, saying that a router is more accurate, is quicker to set up, makes joints quicker, and has better or less upkeep than a dedicated chisel mortiser is in my opinion flawed.
    First and foremost, induction motors don't even have to try to be able to outlast a universal motor- it is inherent in the design- it just will.
    Then, there are the bearings- super high speed small bearings that are sealed in a router cannot possibly last longer than the much,much larger open, and sometimes oiled, or greasable bearings used in a stationary machine. Just look up the load and hour ratings to failure, again, by design.
    There is currently an aweful lot of the worlds woodwork - furniture and millwork alike that was done with a hollow chisel machine, I would almost bet the majority of shop made goods that have mortises were produced that way over the last century and a quarter.
    John is hawking pretty hard about his design of a router mortiser, and trying to sell plans, which is fine by me, but if that system is that good, quick and accurate, businesses would have developed and adopted it 125 years ago.
    Businesses, and the free market are pretty good at analyzing the cost/benefit side of the equation, and they wouldn't survive long with shoddy work, lots of machine upkeep, or long setups.
    I think history backs the hollow chisel mortiser as an accurate, and fast method of producing quality joinery with reliable and fast setup by a skilled operator.
    I have 2 hollow chisel mortisers, and 2 chain mortisers, along with the large Domino- essentially a router based mortiser.
    The Domino lives in it's box, until there is an odd job that the others can't do.
    It is a good and accurate machine, but it is not in my mind fast enough or versatile enough for production work.

  2. #77
    Just received a new MLCS catalog in the mail, and it has a horizontal router table with a mortising attachment for about 300, if anyone is interested.

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    WNY
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    9,648
    Quote Originally Posted by peter gagliardi View Post
    If you don't have the room, then a slot mortiser that is router based makes sense.
    All of the machines discussed so far will cut accurate enough mortises that once glued will hold better than the wood fibers surrounding it.
    However, saying that a router is more accurate, is quicker to set up, makes joints quicker, and has better or less upkeep than a dedicated chisel mortiser is in my opinion flawed.
    First and foremost, induction motors don't even have to try to be able to outlast a universal motor- it is inherent in the design- it just will.
    Then, there are the bearings- super high speed small bearings that are sealed in a router cannot possibly last longer than the much,much larger open, and sometimes oiled, or greasable bearings used in a stationary machine. Just look up the load and hour ratings to failure, again, by design.
    There is currently an aweful lot of the worlds woodwork - furniture and millwork alike that was done with a hollow chisel machine, I would almost bet the majority of shop made goods that have mortises were produced that way over the last century and a quarter.
    John is hawking pretty hard about his design of a router mortiser, and trying to sell plans, which is fine by me, but if that system is that good, quick and accurate, businesses would have developed and adopted it 125 years ago.
    Businesses, and the free market are pretty good at analyzing the cost/benefit side of the equation, and they wouldn't survive long with shoddy work, lots of machine upkeep, or long setups.
    I think history backs the hollow chisel mortiser as an accurate, and fast method of producing quality joinery with reliable and fast setup by a skilled operator.
    I have 2 hollow chisel mortisers, and 2 chain mortisers, along with the large Domino- essentially a router based mortiser.
    The Domino lives in it's box, until there is an odd job that the others can't do.
    It is a good and accurate machine, but it is not in my mind fast enough or versatile enough for production work.
    Geez, Peter, my PC 690 router is now over 25 years old and still running despite the abuse I've unleashed on it. How durable do you want for $150? And when it gives up I'll get another. But it's just a motor. The important end of the business is the cutter, a simple, cheap router bit. They cut hundreds and hundreds of mortises before getting dull. When they do, you change it in 2 minutes and are back in business. None of that sharpening of the chisel, or bit, adjusting, etc., required of a chisel mortiser.

    If you had read closely or looked at the webpage I linked to you would know that the plans to my HRM are FREE. I hate seeing others suffer with the typical chisel mortisers offered to hobbiests. If you cared to look at my machine you would quickly see that it is in essence a JDS Multi Router that only moves in the X-Y plans. The Z-axis moves too, incrementally. The Multi Router has been around for, I don't know, 25 years or more. It's an incredibly versatile machine. The Wirth machine was essentially the same thing but it used an induction motor at one time. Later, they changed to a router to get higher speed and improved mortise quality. The problem with both is they are too expensive for most hobbiests to justify. What I did was distill it down to something cheap and simple to build, yet is still accurate, safe, and easy to use. And, yes, it's very fast too, and you don't have to be a skilled operator to get excellent results the first time, every time.

    In full disclosure, I do sell an upgraded version of my machine. But I have never mentioned it here until now. Since you poked me I'll tell you that the first machine I ever sold was to a pro woodworker. He used to cut mortises with a big floor model chisel mortiser. He has told me several times that his HRM saves him many hours when cutting mortises for a kitchen's worth of faceframes. I'd be happy to put you in touch with him directly if you'd like to verify my claim.


    John

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Edgerton View Post
    I think I get what you mean, hell, I know hobbiests that are better than me. They would starve to death if they did it for a living, but they are good.
    I don't consider woodworking a hobby. To me it's a necessity. I can't afford to buy what I build. Woodworking to me is the same as doing electrical work, plumbing, drywall, tile, etc. It comes with owning a house and improving and maintaining it. The model ship I'm building is a hobby. But it's probably going to take me many years to finish because owning and remodeling a 55 year old house is a full time job.

    After I learned the results I'm getting with what FWW's "Best Benchtop Mortiser" is typical for benchtop units, I abandoned the idea of making frame and panel doors and door fronts for the kitchen cabinets because I want a life, too. I don't need to add any more work. I have enough. It's to the point I'm in serious need of a vacation!
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness..." - Mark Twain

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    N.E, Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie Moriarty View Post
    After I learned the results I'm getting with what FWW's "Best Benchtop Mortiser" is typical for benchtop units,
    For those of us that do not get FWW what unit is that??
    George

    Making sawdust regularly, occasionally a project is completed.

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Citerone View Post
    I have a jet mortiser. At first I didn't like it, until I learned to sharpen the chisels properly..............that takes some research and practice and is worth the time if you intend to mae a lot of M&T's.............other wise I would do the router thing.
    Not forcing the bit and letting the machine do its job is critical also. Once you get in rythem with the machine, it works well enough.

  7. #82
    If you have a drill press then with an attachment you can do mortises. The 1800 lbs chain chisel machine works better in a few ways but the General drill press and attachment was simple and easy, the most negative is you dont move a table with a handle to move your part, rather you move the part slide it on the drill press table. Clamping is not as good but i could have improved that huge and pretty easily. Point is i had a drill press already all I needed was the General Mortise attachment and the chisel and that is simple and was accurate as well. Im going back 35 years for that so we didnt know about chisel tweaking at that time, the out of the box not that ready for use wasnt known or talked about. So had we been thinking that way we could have improved what we bought.

    I have horizontal on combo machines. I still prefer a chisel as dont have to bend over to look at lines as you do on the horizontal machines. With a vertical mortiser I can pull up a chair and sit and see my lines perfectly and easily and be comfortable. You also dont take up any more space if you have a drill press already.

    P2180104A.jpg
    Last edited by Warren Lake; 01-03-2018 at 3:46 PM.

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    2,203
    Panto Router! This way you can make mortises, tenons, dovetails with the same setup https://hybridpantorouter.com/about

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Bokros View Post
    For those of us that do not get FWW what unit is that??
    Fine Woodworking magazine. They review tools, as many magazines do, and gave top honors to the Powermatic PM701 and one of the General International benchtop mortises.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness..." - Mark Twain

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
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    I see generally the PM mortisers get really good reviews. However I have a friend who really does not like his and detailed all of the problems he's had with his unit, so instead I bought an FD250 which offers a setup for use with a hollow chisel or can simply be used as a slot mortiser. It works great as a slot mortiser and before long I should have the hollow chisel setup as well so I'm happy to provide some insights on the HC aspect of it once I cross that bridge.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    If you cared to look at my machine you would quickly see that it is in essence a JDS Multi Router that only moves in the X-Y plans. The Z-axis moves too, incrementally. The Multi Router has been around for, I don't know, 25 years or more. It's an incredibly versatile machine. The Wirth machine was essentially the same thing but it used an induction motor at one time. Later, they changed to a router to get higher speed and improved mortise quality. The problem with both is they are too expensive for most hobbiests to justify. What I did was distill it down to something cheap and simple to build, yet is still accurate, safe, and easy to use.

    In full disclosure, I do sell an upgraded version of my machine.

    John
    And there it is!

    John - please give it a break already! You've mentioned how great your little MDF wonder tool is, and how you don't understand why anyone would want to use anything but, but it grew annoying after the first 5 or 6 times you brought up the machine that you "designed". Is it even within the forum rules to sell stuff as a business here?

    Anyway, the bigger issue here is probably the fact that you just basically admitted to making a cheap copy of a JDS MultiRouter. I'd check your patent laws if I were you. You are not allowed to infringe on patents of other products, including making a copy for your own use, let alone selling copies, or promoting other people to make copies by supplying plans. You could easily be sued by JDS if they held active patents on your copy machine. You would lose that case in a heartbeat. Being "too expensive" is not an excuse to break the law by infringing on patents. Also, being oblivious to laws does not exempt you from them.

    Yes, we all build things as part of our hobby that could potentially infringe on patents, but it is generally overlooked by the people who hold the patents. Your posts in this forum, however, just draw attention to how ignorant you are on patent laws and how persistent you are on helping people to not buy a JDS MultiRouter.

    Just thought I'd open your eyes a bit to reality. You can either take it for what it is, or continue on your present path. Good luck with whatever path you choose.

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    N.E, Ohio
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    Hmmm -- Patent infringement check out this......

    https://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shop...ing_top_anchor

    I think John is safe and his I believe is better than the MLCS.
    George

    Making sawdust regularly, occasionally a project is completed.

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