Mortiser or Router?

[John TenEyck]

I've had the same experience, David; sometimes the end grain mortise is slightly different in size than the corresponding ones in edge grain. It seems more related to wood species than anything else, but I'm not sure. In any case, I fit the loose tenons individually into their respective mortises and a few swipes on the end of those that go into the tight mortises is all that's needed. And, like you, I've never had a loose tenon fail. I'd like to see the data, Larry, that supports your claim that integral tenons are stronger. I could just as easily state that a loose tenon could be stronger than an integral one because it fits well while many integral tenons do not. Having to make up for a poor fit or rough surfaces by using epoxy is just masking an underlying problem. I developed the HRM to solve those problems, so that making M&T joints was an easy process for anyone, first time, every time.

John

[Brian Holcombe]

Historically mortises are not smooth on the interior.

[John TenEyck]

Historically mortises are not smooth on the interior.

Epoxy and hot hide glue might test stronger when the mating surfaces are rough, but Titebond and similar glues used by most folks are strongest when the mating surfaces are smooth. If one wants to use historical methods they should use glues compatible with that approach.


John

[Brian Holcombe]

I do often use hide glue. I don’t use epoxy.

Do you honestly think that some light fuzz from a mortising bit is really going to cause a failure. If it does, I would think the engineering is a concern.

[Warren Lake]

ive measured Joes tennons and they are ubber accurate like within a thou. Mine look like they were made by a swiss army knife. Inside the joint being pretty is irrelevant the tolerances are what matters and the glue will hold as well on mine with some bat ear cuts from Dadoes if that was how I made them that time as Joes will. THe difference is on mine one door will be perfectly flush at the rail and style the next door might be out .003 of flush so they are not repeatedly perfect. Ive put a dial on my mortiser and seen in clamping you can deflect the heavy rear fence. Thats on an 1,800 lb machine that is the Rolls of those machines. The clamping could have been designed better, when you push on something have the push come from the place the part is sitting not another place. I want to replace the clamping with pneumatic run from a foot pedal that being attached to the rear table the part sits on not the base of that table in front of it.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Julie, I use a hollow chisel mortise, I make the tenons on the shaper.

The chisel mortise makes mortises as accurate as they need to be, could a router be more accurate?

Maybe, however it depends upon your jigs. When I hand cut mortises they work just fine as well.

I find the hollower chisel mortise to be quieter, and the dust doesn't spray everywhere...............Of course, I hate routers and don't use one so maybe I'm biased...Happy New Year, may your tools always be sharp...........regards, Rod.

[John TenEyck]

I do often use hide glue. I don’t use epoxy.

Do you honestly think that some light fuzz from a mortising bit is really going to cause a failure. If it does, I would think the engineering is a concern.

No, of course not. I took your earlier post to suggest that there is an advantage to mortises not being smooth. There isn't. Historical methods produced rough sided mortises because they can't make smooth ones, not because it was or is an advantage.

I have no clue why anyone uses a chisel mortiser today, with all of their maintenance and set up issues, when there are far easier ways to cut them.

John

[mreza Salav]

I have had a chisel mortiser, it works Ok but didn't like it; sold it.
I've used router jig. The following is easy to make and accurate with a spiral up-cut bit. Just take lite passes.

mortice1.JPGmortice2.JPGmortice3.JPG

Have had Festool 500 and now 700. It's accurate and versatile. If I want super accurate joints I use dowels with good doweling jig.

[Brian Holcombe]

No, of course not. I took your earlier post to suggest that there is an advantage to mortises not being smooth. There isn't. Historical methods produced rough sided mortises because they can't make smooth ones, not because it was or is an advantage.

I have no clue why anyone uses a chisel mortiser today, with all of their maintenance and set up issues, when there are far easier ways to cut them.

John

I would not describe it as 'rough' but they're a combination shearing and crossgrain cut, so they're rougher than it produced by a router. If done correctly they're strong.






Pretty sure I cut the haunches with a router on these (I don't remember, but it looks like it from the pattern on the side).

[Joe Calhoon]

I have no clue why anyone uses a chisel mortiser today, with all of their maintenance and set up issues, when there are far easier ways to cut them.

John

John, I originally bought my bench top HC for TDL and other small mortises in door and window work. As mentioned that machine with the fixed table, flimsy stops and fences did not work out very well. I purchased the used Wadkin for about the same money Julie paid for her bench top HC and tooling. I am finding that I like it for a lot more uses than ever expected. There is really not much to keeping those running sharp and this one is real easy to set up for one off. Yes the cut is a little fuzzy. Not any better or worse than the horizontal slot mortiser. Not as good as the Maka or Domino. I have a portable chain mortiser and that one is pretty fuzzy but has the ability to go deep. I am sure your router setup is good but like many here I have a aversion to routers and their noise. Just curious if the router will punch out a 1" wide X 5" deep mortise for a exterior mortise lock? The Maka and chain do these easy and the HC not bad either. I still think the Domino is the best all around mortiser for a home shop if you can only have one.
DM mortise.jpg
DM 2.jpg

Here are some examples of mortises cut with the Maka
Maka.jpg
Clean mortises.jpg

[John TenEyck]

Hi Joe,

Those are pretty nice mortises. Still not as nice as what you get from a router, however, which requires no maintenance. When the bit gets dull, after many hundreds of mortises, just change it for a new one. With regards to your machine, not many hobby woodworkers could justify that much space in their shop for such a beast, or find one for what you apparently paid for it. My HRM is reasonable small and very portable. Not as small as a Domino but it can do a lot more and it might cost you $100 to make vs. $1200. Can it make a 1" x 5" deep mortise? Maybe, never tried. You can buy 1/2" end mills at least 6" long. But for my work a 1/2" x 2-1/2" deep mortise is the max. I need to make with the HRM. I suspect that would be the largest most hobby woodworkers would every need, too. I have a slot mortiser on my J/P and I can make really big ones with that for exterior doors. But comparing the two machines is like comparing apples and oranges however. The HRM is easy and fast to set up and use. The slot mortiser is hard and slow both to set up and to use. As such it gets used only when absolutely necessary. In fact, I leave it set up for door mortising and use the HRM for everything else.

Commercial shops like yours need big rugged machines, often dedicated to a single task. I get that. Hobbiests have limited resources in all regards, money and space being the two most common ones. My machine was designed from that perspective. It's the best $50 (what it cost me out of pocket) I have every spent on woodworking. I talk about it like a broken record because I see so many other woodworkers struggle with making mortises, and follow the same path of frustration with machines and processes that are inherently flawed. Is a router noisy? Of course, but I use one for all kinds of tasks anyway. And it's no worse than running my DC and J/P, something no one seems to complain about. I got over the noise very quickly when I saw how easy and fast it is to make mortises with it, and how perfectly the mating parts fit together, every time, w/o fuss.

John

[George Bokros]

What are the opinions on the horizontal router table from MLCS Woodworking. I can see where it could be improved with a T-Track in the table and perhaps some sort of attachment to provide the X & Y axis of the mortiser John built.

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Joe,

Those are pretty nice mortises. Still not as nice as what you get from a router, however, which requires no maintenance. When the bit gets dull, after many hundreds of mortises, just change it for a new one. With regards to your machine, not many hobby woodworkers could justify that much space in their shop for such a beast, or find one for what you apparently paid for it. My HRM is reasonable small and very portable. Not as small as a Domino but it can do a lot more and it might cost you $100 to make vs. $1200. Can it make a 1" x 5" deep mortise? Maybe, never tried. You can buy 1/2" end mills at least 6" long. But for my work a 1/2" x 2-1/2" deep mortise is the max. I need to make with the HRM. I suspect that would be the largest most hobby woodworkers would every need, too. I have a slot mortiser on my J/P and I can make really big ones with that for exterior doors. But comparing the two machines is like comparing apples and oranges however. The HRM is easy and fast to set up and use. The slot mortiser is hard and slow both to set up and to use. As such it gets used only when absolutely necessary. In fact, I leave it set up for door mortising and use the HRM for everything else.

Commercial shops like yours need big rugged machines, often dedicated to a single task. I get that. Hobbiests have limited resources in all regards, money and space being the two most common ones. My machine was designed from that perspective. It's the best $50 (what it cost me out of pocket) I have every spent on woodworking. I talk about it like a broken record because I see so many other woodworkers struggle with making mortises, and follow the same path of frustration with machines and processes that are inherently flawed. Is a router noisy? Of course, but I use one for all kinds of tasks anyway. And it's no worse than running my DC and J/P, something no one seems to complain about. I got over the noise very quickly when I saw how easy and fast it is to make mortises with it, and how perfectly the mating parts fit together, every time, w/o fuss.

John

John,
i am sure your router setup works as you say it does. I just do not agree with your statement about chisel mortisers. I think there is a lot of work that calls for square end mortises. Both at the pro and hobby level. Brian’s well made furniture in his pictures is a good example.

Will your setup do integral tenons like the multi- router? I have seen those in a couple studio furniture shops and seems like a good machine, especially for chairs where a intergal tenon is better.

The Maka has a router mortiser built into it. It is a heavy duty router with threaded bits. It cuts as clean as the Maka and good for small hardware mortises up to about 2” deep.

[John TenEyck]

John,
i am sure your router setup works as you say it does. I just do not agree with your statement about chisel mortisers. I think there is a lot of work that calls for square end mortises. Both at the pro and hobby level. Brian’s well made furniture in his pictures is a good example.

Will your setup do integral tenons like the multi- router? I have seen those in a couple studio furniture shops and seems like a good machine, especially for chairs where a intergal tenon is better.

The Maka has a router mortiser built into it. It is a heavy duty router with threaded bits. It cuts as clean as the Maka and good for small hardware mortises up to about 2” deep.

Yes, for those who prefer integral tenons, the HRM will cut them, of any size and without the need for templates like the Multi Router or Wirth machine requires. There are photos of that in the links. I personally don't see the need to make square ended mortises but for those that do, you can easily square up the end of a routed one with a chisel.
I've been using loose tenons almost exclusively for 20+ years. I don't every recall having one fail. I built a set of kitchen chairs 20 years ago with loose tenons and TB II.

They are neither clunky nor overly beefy.

I use them daily. They are as sound today as when new.



John

[Derek Cohen]

I think there is a lot of work that calls for square end mortises.

I posted earlier my preference for a router based on its easier upkeep and reliability over a mortiser. I use a mortice chisel as often as a plunge router when forming mortices. When I do use a router, I take an extra minute to square up the ends with a chisel. It takes the same or less time to do this as to round the tenon to fit a rounded mortice.

Regards from Perth

Derek