Mortiser or Router?

[Brian Holcombe]

I believe square cornered tenons are appealing in industry because the methods of making accurate tenons quickly leave you with a square tenon. I am certain that the methods applied to making tenons with a router can be quite rapid, but by comparison I really doubt they're as fast as a tenoner or tenoning setup on a shaper.

I also saw a video of a Lari & Lari CNC swing chisel machine, it cut a double mortise with haunch in something like 20 seconds. That's pretty sweet and I presume for that purpose it is still quite common to see square cornered mortise and tenons on window sashes. I knocked apart one of the windows in my 90's era home and it is was joined with double mortise and tenons, quite nice especially for a quick product.

[Warren Lake]

It matters that the chisel sits centered and it wont if its machined undersize. I think that aspect is not too bad but been a while and would need to check pretty sure its close.

It matters that the auger is machined to size or the allen screw will push it to the side and it will wobble. The answer after we have never had any complaints before (once again im the only one who ever complains about stuff ) the answer was mortise machines have Quills. My answer no they dont, some do and some use collets, there is this little thing we used to have 1/8, 3/16, 1/4 etc. Wadkin fits perfect so does Forest and any others US made I have,

[Joe Calhoon]

Warren is referring to fit of the auger to the collet and possibly the fit of the chisel to the collet. I ordered some of the premium Japan chisels from the UK because I needed metric sizes and could not locate any here. The chisels fit my Wadkin collets fine but the augers were all loose and as he says that can cause problems. I took Warrens advise and shimmed with tape to help a little until I have some collets custom made. Wish I could fit a drill chuck on the Wadkin but just not enough room. Unfortunately one of the augers came with the shank reduced down midway right where the set screw hits. see picture.
I have a couple imperial chisel sets from LV and one of the augers are sloppy on those.

I had some original Wadkin and a few Greenlee chisel sets with the machine but prefer the Japanese chisels after learning how to sharpen them.
bushing and auger.jpg

[Joe Calhoon]

I believe square cornered tenons are appealing in industry because the methods of making accurate tenons quickly leave you with a square tenon. I am certain that the methods applied to making tenons with a router can be quite rapid, but by comparison I really doubt they're as fast as a tenoner or tenoning setup on a shaper.

I also saw a video of a Lari & Lari CNC swing chisel machine, it cut a double mortise with haunch in something like 20 seconds. That's pretty sweet and I presume for that purpose it is still quite common to see square cornered mortise and tenons on window sashes. I knocked apart one of the windows in my 90's era home and it is was joined with double mortise and tenons, quite nice especially for a quick product.

Brian,
Square corner is common in the door and window industry but with the big cnc routers and machining centers we are now seeing rounder mortises cut with large router bits and the square tenons being rounded on the machine with the same bit.

We do slot and tenon on windows with a tenoner and that is very quick. The pictures I showed upstream were for inner rails and mulls. I have double knives for the Maka but for just a few mortises it is easier to set up the Wadkin. I can just put a tenoned piece in the machine and line the chisel up by eye and mark the length of mortise and just go to the mark. The Maka is fussy to set and has automatic feed which is not ideal for easing in to see if you are set. Its great for production and very quick and clean.

We toured some door and window shops in the UK and they were mostly using the Centauro and Lari CNC mortisers. The big advantage of those is they can change size quickly, haunch and do double tenons with a single bit. Some even have a built in HC mortiser for small work and TDL mortises.

We usually use the shaper sliding table for tenoning custom door work. Easy to set and good for one off.

Temac.jpg
Fir tenon 2.jpg
Fir tenon.jpg

[Jim Dwight]

I think plunge routers definitely make better looking mortises but I think mortises I make with my Jet hollow chisel mortiser are strong and I can make them quicker than using the plunge router and jigs. But cope and stick router bits are faster still and I have not had any problem with the strength of the little stub tenons. I did a whole kitchen including some doors nearly two feet wide with raised panels and they held up.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Joe, I appreciate your post. And wow, that is a treat to behold! Beautiful setup.

[Marty Schlosser]

Hey, Brian,

sorry to the OP, but I have to ask which "right bits" are you talking of. I'm presently trying out a few mills from my Domino, which hold a lot of promise. I'll let you know how they work out. But in the meantime, which bits are your favourite?

Again, my apologies to the OP.

This should probably be narrowed to specific choices.

CNC swing chisel mortiser is likely the fastest and most accurate.

I've chopped a considerable number of mortises by hand, which can at times be faster than machine but certainly relies heavily upon experience.

I've used a router guide set to knife gauge marks and it works well and is extremely fast with the right bits.

I have recently added a Felder FD-250, with the right bits its pretty quick and certainly it can be extremely accurate which is wonderful. It can be outfitted with a square chisel but for the moment I'm simply squaring up the ends.

[John TenEyck]

Julie, the OP, is a hobbiest. She likely doesn't and won't have access to a CNC or industrial mortiser, as nice as they may be. A Domino is likely the top end of what a hobbiest could justify to make mortises. Still, it's a one trick pony, though very good at what it does. The good news is a router is cheap and cuts beautifully smooth and precise mortises and does so quite quickly and easily if you pare it with something like my horizontal router mortiser. For a few mortises nearly any approach works, but once you start cutting dozens and dozens of them, like you would need to for a set of kitchen doors, you want something that is easy to use, fast, accurate, requires no clean up, and is safe. The HRM does and is all that. You can make intergral tenons with the HRM, but there is almost never a good reason to do so. Loose tenons are faster and easier.

And if you need to cut angled or compound angled mortises, like for chairs, what then? Same answer.


John

[Julie Moriarty]

If the fact you don't do production work as a profession makes one a hobbyist, then I guess the majority of us here are hobbyists. I don't agree with that perspective. There are degrees of skill between hobbyist and professional.

To judge one based on what one can afford to purchase is in no way representative of one's skills. Owning a CNC machine does not make one a professional or an accomplished woodworker. It's what you can achieve with what you have that defines your skill level.

[Brian Holcombe]

Hey, Brian,

sorry to the OP, but I have to ask which "right bits" are you talking of. I'm presently trying out a few mills from my Domino, which hold a lot of promise. I'll let you know how they work out. But in the meantime, which bits are your favourite?

Again, my apologies to the OP.

So far pretty happy with a spiral upcut, but I have been tempted to try a compression bit as well. Curious to see how you like the domino bits.

[Joe Calhoon]

If the fact you don't do production work as a profession makes one a hobbyist, then I guess the majority of us here are hobbyists. I don't agree with that perspective. There are degrees of skill between hobbyist and professional.

To judge one based on what one can afford to purchase is in no way representative of one's skills. Owning a CNC machine does not make one a professional or an accomplished woodworker. It's what you can achieve with what you have that defines your skill level.

I don’t think anyone was implying that you buy a CNC mortiser, at least I wasn’t. You asked a pretty general question about mortising methods and machines that brought forth a lot of discussion of different types of machines. I cannot justify a CNC mortiser in my works either but I find discussing them and many other types of mortisers interesting.
Sorry that it offended you.

[Joe Calhoon]

So far pretty happy with a spiral upcut, but I have been tempted to try a compression bit as well. Curious to see how you like the domino bits.

I would also like to know how those bits work in a horizontal mortiser. The Domino makes a cleaner more precise mortise than I was ever able to achieve with end mills or mortising bits. I don’t know if is the cutting action of the Domino or the bit design that makes it good. Maybe a combination of both.

[Larry Edgerton]

If the fact you don't do production work as a profession makes one a hobbyist, then I guess the majority of us here are hobbyists. I don't agree with that perspective. There are degrees of skill between hobbyist and professional.

To judge one based on what one can afford to purchase is in no way representative of one's skills. Owning a CNC machine does not make one a professional or an accomplished woodworker. It's what you can achieve with what you have that defines your skill level.

I think I get what you mean, hell, I know hobbiests that are better than me. They would starve to death if they did it for a living, but they are good.

My 2 cents. Never liked loose tenons in end grain, just not as strong as a machined tenon, especially in smaller parts. Never used a benchtop morticer so can't help you there. But if they are a little rough, use epoxy, it likes rough.

You do nice work Julie, I am sure what ever you do will be just fine.

Joe, you are sure getting a lot of use out of that old Martin. Thought it might end up being a garage queen, but no way!

[David Kumm]

Larry, I always noticed that the mortise in end grain was slightly different in size than one made in the long grain ( terminology may be poor ) when I used the FD 250. It didn't matter what type of bit but because of that I sometimes used epoxy or a rasp to compensate on the narrow one. The Bacci with a spiral end mill seems to deliver a clean and uniform mortise provided I set the feed to not be too aggressive. I've not had a floating tenon fail that I can tell but interior doors don't get a lot of abuse. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Dave, I noticed the loose fit also when we built with a slot mortiser. We did a lot of doors that way and never any joint failures. That is where the Domino is impressive, the fit and precision is good. We still use dowels (gasp) on Euro doors and a lot of interior doors with never a joint failure there either. You have to be careful to get good fitting dowels and rot resistant ones for exterior.
I think true square edge M&T is nice for traditional work. I use it for historic door and window work and hope to build some arts and craft type furniture for myself using nice joinery. Using a sliding table shaper and tenoner for this drives for a square edge mortise.

Larry, its true hobbiests produce some of the best work. It is my goal to become one but failing miserably so far.
l have so much time and money in that shaper I have to use it...