Combination Plane and Lee Valley Tuition

[William Fretwell]

Lee Valley Bill.jpg

Well I headed off to Lee Valley with various cutters sharpened to 8000 grit and a selection of woods (Maple, Pine and Black Walnut).

This is Bill with my plane getting a work out! We tried various cutters and woods.
The maple proved most difficult with the 7/16" bead. Firstly the cutters on each side differed in size. The nickers were a problem, one side was fine the other clogged with fibres and forced the nicker out widening the groove in a lopsided way which the rail tried to ride at an angle. We took the nickers off altogether they just don't work and the grub adjustment screw can only make things worse.
Progress was very slow and very hard work due to friction of the rails. Applied wax to the rails made life much easier indeed but the wax will remain which would be a problem.
After an hour with the first groove we achieved full round over at one end and we both had a work out!

Holding the plane level is extremely difficult, as you cut the groove the fence slowly moves away from the work and needs to be moved in, the brass knobs needed periodic tightening. The friction of the rails was enormous and quite a shock.

_MG_7388.jpg

We tried a 3/8" flute in pine. It cut easily but you have to use only one rail so balance again proved very difficult. The end result was not too pretty (sorry no pic).

Next was black walnut with the 1/4" two reed blade. This wider blade balanced well and the smaller radius cut well, a world of difference to the other two.

_MG_7391.jpg

We experimented for 4 hours altogether. The plane is hard to use, it's performance varies greatly in different woods and the nickers are useless. My guess is anything but perfectly straight grain will bunch up under one or other and push it out. The grub screw pushes the nickers out also so seems counter productive only making the fibre bunching worse.

_MG_7390.jpg

Here you can see the distorted side created by the nicker.

We did use the supplied 1/4" groove blade also and had the same issues with balance and keeping the groove straight in maple.

I left feeling this is a very difficult tool. I am extremely dexterous and mostly patient (now I'm older!). If it only works for wide blades and easier woods that's frustrating. Grooves for drawers are a must, as is a 1/4" single bead for me.

Think of it as a narrow shoulder plane with ice skates for a base that has been drinking whiskey all day to drive the sober craftsman crazy.

I am trying to think of a fix for the balance issue with narrow cutters, ideas anyone?

[Pat Barry]

Seems to me that first picture tells the story. Its a very poor position structurally speaking. Those rods are not nearly capable of withstanding a tad bit of racking force that is undoubtedly going to happen the way you are doing it in that picture. The only way to overcome this to take very light cuts. Better would be to cut registering close to the intended cut (other side of the board).

[William Fretwell]

Makes no difference really. It's not the racking force but the balance. The racking is trivial and when the fence comes off the work as it does it's non existent.

[Patrick Chase]

Makes no difference really. It's not the racking force but the balance. The racking is trivial and when the fence comes off the work as it does it's non existent.

It's a fairly simple matter of technique. Ask Jim, or Steven, or anybody else here who has a combo plane and they'll happily explain what you'll need to practice to be able to handle the balance issue. It's been described in several other threads for that matter.

Everything worth learning looks hard when you're starting from zero.

[Mike Brady]

Roy Underhill has a solution: Just have a bunch of 45's, each one preset for a particular operation.

[Rob Lee]

Hi,

Posting in threads like this is a bit awkward for me....where customers and staff are involved.

Let me firstly acknowledge that Mr Fretwell’s experience with the plane to date has not been what we would have wanted, despite efforts on both sides to correct it. As this plane is very new, there just aren’t a lot of people out there with a lot of experience using it in the stores. We do have training programs for all staff to support technical product, though with 20 retail locations, it does take a bit of time to deploy. We also support training with video, teleconferencing, and shared knowledge though internal web based resources.

I can’t fault our store staff for the efforts they’ve gone to, to help solve the customer’s concerns. Likewise, Mr Fretwell should have had a better learning experience.

We learn by doing things, making best efforts, and learning from the results. Clearly, there are still learnings to come from this.

There has been a lot of good advice given to Mr Fretwell in this thread, and we have several senior people following the discussion, and addressing any training/support issues identified.

Rob Lee

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi,

Posting in threads like this is a bit awkward for me....where customers and staff are involved.

Let me firstly acknowledge that Mr Fretwell’s experience with the plane to date has not been what we would have wanted, despite efforts on both sides to correct it. As this plane is very new, there just aren’t a lot of people out there with a lot of experience using it in the stores. We do have training programs for all staff to support technical product, though with 20 retail locations, it does take a bit of time to deploy. We also support training with video, teleconferencing, and shared knowledge though internal web based resources.

I can’t fault our store staff for the efforts they’ve gone to, to help solve the customer’s concerns. Likewise, Mr Fretwell should have had a better learning experience.

We learn by doing things, making best efforts, and learning from the results. Clearly, there are still learnings to come from this.

There has been a lot of good advice given to Mr Fretwell in this thread, and we have several senior people following the discussion, and addressing any training/support issues identified.

Rob Lee

Thank you for speaking up here Rob. In some ways, it would have been easier for you to stay quiet on this one. But as usual, you've done what's right. Your personal attention to your customers' experience is one of many reasons LV has such a loyal following. I have a shop full of your handtools.

Fred

[Don Dorn]

It's a fairly simple matter of technique. Ask Jim, or Steven, or anybody else here who has a combo plane and they'll happily explain what you'll need to practice to be able to handle the balance issue. It's been described in several other threads for that matter.

Everything worth learning looks hard when you're starting from zero.

I agree completely. A friend tried to teach me to run a Record 778 rabbet plane of which he was a master and I was horrible. After a good bit of practice, I developed the balance and technique you speak of and now run it as well as he does. Same occurred with a Record 50 with a beading blade. If it were easy, everyone could do it - it's worth working for as it brings a great deal of pleasure and sense of accomplishment.

[steven c newman]

cam rest.jpg
Twould be rather nice to use one of these?
groove 4.jpg
Once you get this far away from an edge...

[Patrick Chase]

Good point, Steven.

For those who don't recognize what they're seeing, Steven is pointing out that the Stanley #45's cam rest can be helpful when cutting with the fence way out on the ends of the long arms. See figure 6 on p. 4 of the #45 manual. I personally don't like to use it much on my 55, but that's just subjective preference on my part and I see how it would be helpful in keeping the rods level. The catch is of course that you have to keep adjusting it as you deepen the cut, which is why I don't use it.

Unfortunately that's the one part of the 45 that LV didn't copy, though it's easy enough to make an equivalent out of wood.

One other trick that sometimes helps me is to use the thumb of your fence hand as a depth stop on the surface of the workpiece, though to do that you have to use a "low grip" on the fence (you can't use the provided handhold on either Stanley or LV).

[Rob Young]

Makes no difference really. It's not the racking force but the balance. The racking is trivial and when the fence comes off the work as it does it's non existent.

On a Stanley #45, that's what the cam rest helps with.

[Bob Leistner]

I think if I had to do that operation, and was not having success, I would try a center support. Of course you/I would have to make one, but I think it would be worthwhile.

[John Gornall]

Are you using the knickers with the grain? I only use them across the grain with my plow planes

From the Lee Valley manual:

To prevent tear-out in cross-grain work, such as dadoes, adjustable scoring spurs on both the body and the sliding section define the edges of the cut ahead of the blade. These are typically withdrawn out of the way for most cuts.

[Hasin Haroon]

The plane would be a lot easier to balance and cut if you didn't use it so far away from the edge. A cam rest would help with that if you absolutely needed to cut so far, but for a board that size, why not just flip it and cut closer? It's a perfectly easy cut that way. And as someone else pointed out, you shouldn't be needing the knickers for cuts along the grain.

[Simon MacGowen]

The plane would be a lot easier to balance and cut if you didn't use it so far away from the edge. A cam rest would help with that if you absolutely needed to cut so far, but for a board that size, why not just flip it and cut closer?.

Because of grain direction?

But I agree that the long distance from the edge is undesirable and I would rather cut against the grain with the fence close to the edge. There are various techniques to overcome the against-the-grain issues.

Simon