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Thread: Which smoothing plane to buy

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    The 5-1/2 is BD. Unless you're talking about back-beveling (which is somewhat incompatible with a close-set cap iron) there is no option to change the angle with an iron. But as I noted in a previous reply, 45 deg should be adequate with a properly set cap iron.

    A question for the OP: What make is your 5-1/2? I'm asking because I'm wondering if there's an option to use a high-angle frog with that plane.
    My 5-1/2 is a Stanley, one of the newer ones made in England with plastic handles. The chip-breaker is as close as it can get to the edge of the blade. the blade is slightly cambered, just enough so it doesn't leave plane tracks, so the chip-breaker is set so the corners are immeasurably close to the corners of the blade, there is only slightly more blade exposed in the middle. I get beautiful fluffy shavings from curly maple, i just cant get tearout free results in the walnut where the grain changes direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Luter View Post
    I'd spend the extra $40 on the Lee Valley/Veritas over the Wood River.
    It's actually more like an extra $100 . Woodcraft has a 10% coupon they email you when you sign up, and the extra blade is $20. LN is 245 plus 40 for a blade and shipping . Veritas is about the same, but they are out of stock till september

    Quote Originally Posted by Hasin Haroon View Post
    If you can fettle a plane, go for the woodriver #4, and save even more money for chisels!
    You asked for woodriver, so I suggest a #4 (which I have, and with very little fettling it is an excellent plane), but if you are willing to try a different maker, the Veritas Bevel Up Smoother or a Custom 4 at a higher angle (50 or 55) would be my first choices. Since you are having issues with tearout, maybe a Custom 4 would be your best bet so you can use a chipbreaker. The quality is the same as a Lie Nielsen (but costs a bit less) and better than a Woodriver.
    I hadn't considered the veritas bevel up smoother, but it is also up there in price. By the time i buy an extra blade im close to $300. Id consider a plane with a different angle frog, however, that also ups the price out of my budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    A 62 with a 40 deg blade is a 52 deg total angle. In my experience that won't do any better in terms of tearount on difficult woods than a close-set cap iron on a 45 deg BD plane. You'd probably want a 50 deg blade (62 deg total angle) if you go the BU route.

    With all of that said, how close are you getting the cap iron to the cutting edge? I used to think that 1/64" or so was "close", but I've since come to realize that that's actually too much to control tearout in difficult woods. You need to be at around half of that and sometimes less. A 45 deg bench plane with a truly sharp iron and tight chipbreaker set should be able to handle walnut and African mahogany. I have a 55 deg frog for my #4, but I don't use it much ever since I got serious about learning to use the chipbreaker.
    with a 62 i can get the 40 degree blade and put a 5 degree secondary bevel on it, for a total of 57 degrees. from what i've learned, that should tackle difficult grain more easily.
    It may very well be that its my blade and chipbreaker that limit me, but im limited with how much i can alter them between uses. I use the 5-1/2 for basically everything. It's my fore plane, my smoothing plane, my everything in between plane right now. I want something that i can leave set up for smoothing all the time. a Dedicated smoothing plane or a 62 where i can easily switch blades and close down the throat, fit that bill.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Mitchell View Post
    I hesitate to throw a wrench in the works, but are you confident that you're getting truly sharp edges on your plane irons from your sharpening regimen?

    I have, among other bench planes, a no 5 1/2 and no 7 that I sometimes use for tasks other than what they are dedicated for. When they are freshly honed, I have no problem taking smoothing size passes, so it's not necessarily the size or no. of the plane but how sharp it is and how you use it.

    Fiddling with the chip breaker placement can certainly help with tear out in certain situations, but if the iron isn't truly sharp then you won't be able to take as fine a shaving as needed to control tear out in a smoothing pass.

    Before buying another plane, I would focus on a critical look at your sharpening process, if for no other reason than to confirm that you are doing the best job you possibly can to achieve truly sharp edges. Again, I have no idea your level of experience or what your sharpening process is and how confident you are with it. I just bring up the point because it doesn't seem that anyone else has spelled that out so far in this thread, and it's pretty critical.

    I would also look closely at the particular characteristics of the boards you're planing and getting tear out from. Is there reversing grain going on in the middle of a board, which may force you to approach from different directions to avoid tear out? Is the wood highly figured, which may mean using a card scraper instead of a hand plane?

    A high angle frog and/or back bevel on a bevel down smoothing plane may help with tear out in ornery boards, but that's more of a dedicated setup that isn't usually necessary for ordinary smoothing tasks.

    All this said, a smoothing plane is a wonderful and useful tool for dedicated smoothing tasks, and it may be that you want to add one to your arsenal. I guess what I'm getting at is this: don't expect a new plane to fix all the tear out problems without some careful examination of the specifics of each situation regarding tear out.
    I agree with you on the sharpening part. Its taken me months to almost perfect it, but im pretty confident in my process now. I use the scary sharp method, and though i want to move to a diamond stone and shapton glass process, i dont have the money for it right now.

    I dont expect a new plane to fix all my problems, but i do expect a new plane to work better in this task than the current one I have. I know that on a new plane the sole will be flatter, the blade will be thicker, the tolerances tighter, the machining more precise, the overall function better., and ill be able to specifically set it up for the task at hand. All of that should lead to a better performing plane.
    Last edited by Jared Hendrix; 07-26-2017 at 10:10 AM.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jared Hendrix View Post
    I agree with you on the sharpening part. Its taken me months to perfect it, but im pretty confident in my process now. I use the scary sharp method, and though i want to move to a diamond stone and shapton glass process, i dont have the money for it right now.

    I dont expect a new plane to fix all my problems, but i do expect a new plane to work better in this task than the current one I have. I know that on a new plane the sole will be flatter, the blade will be thicker, the tolerances tighter, the machining more precise, the overall function better., and ill be able to specifically set it up for the task at hand. All of that should lead to a better performing plane.
    These Internet forums are littered with guys who have spent thousands buying planes with flatter soles, thicker blades, tighter tolerances, more precise machining, and more. All because they did not know how to use the planes they already had.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared Hendrix View Post
    My 5-1/2 is a Stanley, one of the newer ones made in England with plastic handles. The chip-breaker is as close as it can get to the edge of the blade. the blade is slightly cambered, just enough so it doesn't leave plane tracks, so the chip-breaker is set so the corners are immeasurably close to the corners of the blade, there is only slightly more blade exposed in the middle. I get beautiful fluffy shavings from curly maple, i just cant get tearout free results in the walnut where the grain changes direction.
    How much tearout are you getting on the Walnut and African Mahogany? Are we talking about a train wreck, or just isolated spots of particularly problematic grain? Also how thick are your smoothing cuts and how deep is the resulting tearout?

    If you're getting localized shallow tearout then I'd second the suggestion for some sort of scraper, though I'd go with a card scraper over a #80 for anything localized. If you think about the cutting mechanics of a properly "hooked" scraper it's equivalent to a plane with an ultra-tightly-set cap iron. The hook cuts at a fairly low angle, and then the face of the scraper immediately turns the chip and breaks it. With a card scraper you can work small spots, and you have direct control over the cutting angle.

    Warren can probably plane everything without tearout using his #3. I can't manage that, but I can usually get all but the worst spots and then clean those with a card scraper.

    IMO sharpening is like golf in the sense that it's one of those things that you can always improve, so your comment in another post about being "pretty confident" in your technique sets off some alarm bells for me. What medium are you finishing/polishing on?

    EDIT: The OP didn't say he'd perfected anything. Revised accordingly.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 07-25-2017 at 10:41 PM.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    These Internet forums are littered with guys who have spent thousands buying planes with flatter soles, thicker blades, tighter tolerances, more precise machining, and more. All because they did not know how to use the planes they already had.
    That is known as cutting to the chase.

    It is hard to beat a Bailey pattern plane.

    ken

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jared Hendrix View Post
    I now have the budget to buy one plane, from the wood river line, and i cant decide which to get. I want this plane to be my smoothing plane and to be able to smooth walnut and mahogany without tear-out.
    You know, I kept hearing how great 4 1/2's are. I bought one. (Not wood river brand.)
    I'd rather use my wood river #3. The 4 1/2 only gets used occasionally. That #3 is well sized for the small to medium projects I do.
    Fred

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly View Post
    You know, I kept hearing how great 4 1/2's are. I bought one. (Not wood river brand.)
    I'd rather use my wood river #3. The 4 1/2 only gets used occasionally. That #3 is well sized for the small to medium projects I do.
    Fred
    I have a 4-1/2 but also tend to use a 3 or a 4 (and sometimes even a 2) depending on the size of the work and how tired I feel by the time I finally have a few minutes to play. That extra 3/8" of iron makes a pretty noticeable difference IMO.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    The 5-1/2 is BD. Unless you're talking about back-beveling (which is somewhat incompatible with a close-set cap iron) there is no option to change the angle with an iron. But as I noted in a previous reply, 45 deg should be adequate with a properly set cap iron.

    A question for the OP: What make is your 5-1/2? I'm asking because I'm wondering if there's an option to use a high-angle frog with that plane.
    I was not talking about back beveling. I was not talking sense . . . at all . Wandered right off the reservation . . . doh! Thanks Patrick
    "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".


    – Samuel Butler

  9. #24
    You probably want another BD plane setup for smoothing only, as there is too much camber on your no.51/2 since you said with your cap iron is as close as you can get.
    You mentioned you closed up the mouth on your 51/2, that is not necessary one bit, if you set the cap iron close enough.
    You mentioned that the camber is the minimum amount you can set it to, without making plane tracks....
    You can have less camber without marks if you take finer shavings which you will need to with the cap iron tight.
    I suggest you try and overshoot the cap iron adjustment and try it then.
    You wont believe how close it has to be to have effect.
    If you think you have overshot it, but you have not got crinkly shavings, you have not overshot it.
    Try setting it again to get these crinkly shavings ...
    When you get these results back it off a breath.

    Tom

  10. #25
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    Should i Get the 4 & 1/2 or the 62 with a 40 degree bevel blade?
    BU vs BD? Different strokes for different folks. Either can be good. The question is "can you make the most of your BD planes?", which is similar to the recommendation that Warren made. Still, I think we would almost all prefer a shorter plane than a #5 1/2 for smoothing. I like a #3, others like a #4. Not a big enough difference to get your panties in a twist.

    I hadn't considered the veritas bevel up smoother, but it is also up there in price. By the time i buy an extra blade im close to $300.
    The best BU smoother available - bar none! - is the Veritas BU Smoother (BUS). This is a dedicated smoother. It cannot be used to shoot (as it has rounded sides). Treat it as a dedicated smoother - then you only need one blade (as it comes), and not an extra blade. More on this below.

    with a 62 i can get the 40 degree blade and put a 5 degree secondary bevel on it, for a total of 57 degrees. from what i've learned, that should tackle difficult grain more easily.
    I would not do this. The #62 is a jack, and this is duplicating the #5 1/2. The smoother is a LN #164 (which is the same as the Veritas LA Smoother). Both are good BU choices, but neither is as good as the BUS.

    In any event, you want the blade of the smoother to have a slight camber to prevent track marks. This will be difficult to do when the blade primary angle is 40 degrees. You are better off with a 25 degree primary bevel, and add a 50 degree secondary bevel with a camber. The low primary bevel makes it easier to camber. The higher secondary bevel adds protection against tear out. See the linked article.

    A Stanley/LN/Veritas/WR #4 plane really benefits from learning to set the chipbreaker. The bed angle can then remain at 45 degrees, which is easier to push than higher bed angles. The higher bed angels get progressively harder to push as they go up, and even more so when the blade gets wider (as in the half sizes). Blades are also easier to hone/camber than those BU, since the primary/secondary bevel will be lower.

    For reference, I have three favourite BD smoothers: Veritas Custom #4 (42 degree frog), LN #3 (45 degree frog), Stanley #3 (45 degree frog). In the BU area, I also like the Veritas BU Smoother (50 degree blade).

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  11. #26
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    These Internet forums are littered with guys who have spent thousands buying planes with flatter soles, thicker blades, tighter tolerances, more precise machining, and more. All because they did not know how to use the planes they already had.
    Great comment Warren.
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 07-26-2017 at 7:47 AM.

  12. #27
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    Jared Tom had a great suggestion. Take your 5 1/2 and even regrind the blade with less camber. Work with the cap iron until you get what you want. Once you have that worked out you will be able to make a better informed decision. You can take the recommendations about which plane to buy, that won't solve the issue.
    Jim

  13. #28
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    I agree with Derek. I really like my LV BUS. I got it with PMV11 blade and love it for finishing. I also use two #3 Stanley style smoothers but usually finish with the BUS. Why? It just feels good and leaves a nice finish.

  14. #29
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    A point / question about the 5 1/2 - it seems kind of big to be a smoother. 15 inches long and 2 1/4 wide per Patrick Leach. By contrast the #3's I use are are only 8 inches by 1 3/4. My SBUS is 10 by 2 1/4 and I tend only to use that for final finishing. I think using the 5 1/2 for smoothing won't get the job done as easily as the #3 because you will be frustrated by lack of progress if you go for minimal tearout which means lots of strokes. A smaller plane does a better job at this due to simple geometry, that's why I use #3s to start the smooting and the BUS for final finish.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Pallas View Post
    Jared Tom had a great suggestion. Take your 5 1/2 and even regrind the blade with less camber. Work with the cap iron until you get what you want. Once you have that worked out you will be able to make a better informed decision. You can take the recommendations about which plane to buy, that won't solve the issue.
    Jim
    There is only a slight bit of camber on the corners of the blade. I simply put pressure on each corner for a couple seconds while sharpening. I use this plane to dimension boards as well, so removing the little camber i do have will only result in track marks when i try to take a deeper cut while dimensioning the boards, which i will then need a smoothing plane to get rid of. and Yes i could then just back off the blade to take a finer cut at that point, but id rather just reach for another plane already set up for the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    A point / question about the 5 1/2 - it seems kind of big to be a smoother. 15 inches long and 2 1/4 wide per Patrick Leach. By contrast the #3's I use are are only 8 inches by 1 3/4. My SBUS is 10 by 2 1/4 and I tend only to use that for final finishing. I think using the 5 1/2 for smoothing won't get the job done as easily as the #3 because you will be frustrated by lack of progress if you go for minimal tearout which means lots of strokes. A smaller plane does a better job at this due to simple geometry, that's why I use #3s to start the smooting and the BUS for final finish.
    Yes, i think the 5-1/2 is a little too big as well. when i'm working with smaller pieces of wood it makes it harder to keep the plane level and referenced well on the face of the board. I'm eyeing a #4 on ebay and i may go that route if the price stays low.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    These Internet forums are littered with guys who have spent thousands buying planes with flatter soles, thicker blades, tighter tolerances, more precise machining, and more. All because they did not know how to use the planes they already had.
    This is true. People in the 1700s used wooden planes with blades made of whatever steel they could find to create masterpieces, and yet, very few people follow this tradition today. The reason for that is because there are better, easier and more efficient ways to do things. I currently only have one saw. Its a veritas dovetail saw. If i were to ask y'all to suggest my next saw for a crosscut saw, it would be useless to tell me that i should just learn to use the rip saw for all my tasks, and that these forums are filled with guys who spent thousands on bad-axe saws an the like. Yes i can make crosscuts with a rip saw, but a dedicated crosscut saw is going to do the job better.
    I know my skills can improve, but i also know that the reason there are different planes on the market is because the different planes are specifically designed to excel in different tasks. For someone like me who only has 30 min to an hour a day to work in his shop, i don't have the time use one plane to dimension my boards, take the blade out, resharpen, reset the chip-breaker, adjust the plane, etc.




    Maybe i can re-word my original question to help clear things up..
    I have 2 planes right now. a 5-1/2 and a 6. I use the 6 for jointing and squaring up boards and on the shooting board. I use the 5-1/2 for everything else. I now have the money to add one plane to my set of tools and i want that plane to be able to be a smoothing plane. With most woods, the 5-1/2 can act as a smoother just fine, but for certain wood, specifically wood that has grain direction changes , the 5-1/2 isn't set up properly to create a perfect finish. from what i know, the 4-1/2 or 4 , and the 62, or other bevel up smoothing plane, would be better suited to get me the end results i desire.

    So, If i only have the money for one plane, which plane do you believe would suit me better for smoothing, and specifically smoothing wood with grain direction changes?

    I will eventually be able to add more planes to my inventory, however there's other things that i need to buy right now to complete my shop. A tenon saw, crosscut/carcass saw, a couple chisels, measuring and layout tools, wood, lighting fixtures, an air conditioner, a new table saw blade, etc. And yes i know that i can get by without these things as well, but it just makes things less frustrating, and makes your work turn out better, and without blood stains, when you have the right tools for the job.

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