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Thread: Which Japanese Bench Chisel on 'Tools From Japan'?

  1. #16
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    I haven't seen anyone selling that steel in a chisel, only in plane blades. They are still using forge welding to laminate to soft iron. Most of the exotic steels tend to show up in planes it would seem.

    The maker I have is Shoichiro Tanaka.

    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    Thanks, that explanation makes sense. I agree that for conventionally-processed steels there is a real difference in properties between rolled and forged.

    It will be interesting to see is what happens as sintered (PM) steels see wider adoption. Sintering beats both forging and rolling in basically every measurable property, so at that point a "pre-laminated" assembly would become a viable solution at the high end. I wonder if some of the Japanese makers have seen the writing on the wall in that regard?

    For that matter, what would prevent Hitichi from making a forged Rizi-kai to cater to higher-end clients?
    I have never heard of, seen, or used a sintered metal plane or chisel.

    I have a sintered metal kitchen knife of laminated sandwich construction, and its a real honey, so I have no problems with the principle. Konobu recommended the material to me (ZDP-189 sandwiched between ATS-34, made by Hitachi metals for Henkels). It gets extremely sharp, and when used for typical food prep, holds an edge for a very long time. But it is brittle, chips easily, and despite the very high chromium content, rusts easily. The ATS-34 layers add necessary toughness and corrosion protection, otherwise my wife would have destroyed it long ago.

    I also have a lot of high-end wrenches and sockets made from sintered metal made by Kyoto Tools. Great tools, very tough and well made, and almost no cutting or machining.

    I am a fan of sintered metals, but have not seen comparisons in the martensite structures of sintered metal to forged and rolled steels. If you can tell me where I can find that information, I would be grateful.

    Production QC of small shapes like gears and valves using sintered metals is significantly easier, and since machining costs are greatly reduced compared to traditional methods, there are real cost savings. indeed, I am told that there are some alloys that are only possible using sintering techniques.

    I have a friend that works for a manufacturer of sintered metal parts in Kyoto, and have toured his plant. Fascinating stuff. But his outfit does not forge, roll or laminate, only grind and mix the metal powders, then mold them to shape and bake. Hotter than hell.

    Stan
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 07-26-2017 at 7:43 AM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Covington View Post
    I have never heard of, seen, or used a sintered metal plane or chisel.

    I have a sintered metal kitchen knife of laminated sandwich construction, and its a real honey, so I have no problems with the principle. Konobu recommended the material to me (ZDP-189 sandwiched between ATS-34, made by Hitachi metals for Henkels). It gets extremely sharp, and when used for typical food prep, holds an edge for a very long time. But it is brittle, chips easily, and despite the very high chromium content, rusts easily. The ATS-34 layers add necessary toughness and corrosion protection, otherwise my wife would have destroyed it long ago.

    I also have a lot of high-end wrenches and sockets made from sintered metal made by Kyoto Tools. Great tools, very tough and well made, and almost no cutting or machining.

    I am a fan of sintered metals, but have not seen comparisons in the martensite structures of sintered metal to forged and rolled steels. If you can tell me where I can find that information, I would be grateful.
    The first thing to do is to be more specific. "Sintering" or "PM" refers to anything that's formed by heating and compacting a powdered base material, and there are several ways to do that. I believe that most tools (and certainly anything made with Crucible-branded alloys like CPM-3V or CPM-10V) are formed using the High Isostatic Pressure (HIP) process. This document seems to give a reasonable overview of the process. EPMA doesn't actually verify the email they make you submit to get the doc, so be creative :-).

    The doc above has a tiny bit on microstructure. You can find a lot more with appropriate searches, for example "HIP hardening martensite" turns up some interesting stuff.

    EDIT: Note that the scales aren't always the same between the "forged" and "HIP" microstructure SEM shots in that doc.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 07-27-2017 at 12:06 AM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Mitchell View Post
    Just my opinion, but I don't think buying a pre-determined "set" is usually cost effective.
    Phillip, I agree, in general, and that goes for lots of things, like pots and pans and kitchen knives. Get a couple of sizes you know you'll use and build your own set from there, as needed.

    I've also heard great things about Ouchi chisels, but have no direct experience. Online reading seems to indicate that they may be a popular choice for carpentry / woodworking professionals in Japan, but don't quote me on that.
    Having said that, I did buy a very slightly used set of 10 Ouchi bench chisels (sometimes spelled Oichi and other variations) because the price was right; this was back in 1981 but IIRC the set was somewhere between $100 and $200. I've put a ton of work on mine and I think they're very good tools and would recommend the maker wholeheartedly unless someone knows that the quality has declined over the years. And you're right, they were (are?) a popular choice with professional Japanese carpenters. I've used a lot of different Western chisels but these are the only Japanese ones I have any experience with.

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