New to woodworking, hand tools and sawmill creek- some advice on planes?

[Alex Liebert]

Hey Neaders! I've been poking around on this forum for some time and clearly there's some very knowledgeable people here. I'd love to get your input on some things I'm stuck on.

As a hobby I restore and refinish vintage furniture (Some recent work here and here.) I'm pretty good with finishing, veneer replacements, cosmetic repairs but I've always want to build my own designs so for the past month I've been taking a try at it.

I'm learning from the internet, and there's an endless amount of information but it's daunting to learn- trial and error gets very expensive, and I find myself wasting a lot of money on things that don't work for me. I wish I knew a woodworker who could show me a few things in person, but classes are in the thousands of dollars around here and the guys I asked about private lessons are all booked up.

My project is primarily an abstract organic shape. It seemed the spokeshave was the tool for job but I was intimidated by the notion that vintage hand tools need expert tuning and fettling, and new ones are so poorly made they need just as much to correct machining errors. I started out working with rasps, but I got very lucky and picked up a Stanley 151 from an experienced woodworker's estate sale. It was a revelation- it was tuned and sharp, and sculpting with it is the most enjoyable woodworking thing I've done so far. This is where the joy is for me and I very much want to get experienced with primarily hand work. I also bought a $10 Record 151 at a flea market that will not cut- I'm using it to learn to sharpen because when the Stanley gets dull I'm going to be out of luck.

The basis of my project is a flat panel "blank" that I then need to sculpt. I purchased poplar from my local hardwood dealer, and I paid for their milling service, thinking I could get flat, square and true lumber this way- and learn to true it myself on a future project. The guys there think I'm a little dumb because I ask so many questions, and though they assured me the milling would leave me with flat boards where all corners were at 90 degrees, I learned that they do not joint the faces under any circumstance so you end up with a consistent thickness of boards with all the bow, twist, and cup from the raw lumber intact. (Maybe I should've known this, I'm still figuring out how things work over there- including some confusing pricing policies [I understand how board feet work, but they also have separate charges by the linear foot, the pricing changes based on who I talk to and I never got an explanation I can understand].)

Without a way to joint edges, I relied on very carefully shifting the boards around to find a place where their rip saw made a square enough cut to edge glue. Because the lumber was warped to begin with, I still have misalignment which I corrected by eye with a card scraper.

Since I can't purchase lumber milled true (and I called around, local cabinet shops will charge me minimum $300 to run a few feet of board over a power jointer), and I don't have the space, dust and noise collection, or interest in big power tools- I'd really like to be able to joint boards with hand planes.

I bought a flea market stanley no 8 (early 1900s) and a stanley 4 (thought it was well-cared for vintage but turned out to be a recently made one.) The #8 sole is quite concave- 1/100th of an inch high in the center. While I figure out lapping that I've been trying to get the #4 working to joint my boards, but it's in bad shape. I can go into detail if need be but the frog bed is misshapen beyond just not being flat and the adjustment mechanisms fit together quite poorly (I compared to the vintage stanley and it has none of these problems.)

Maybe I could get it working, but without having ever used a good working hand plane except the spokeshave, I'm really shooting in the dark here. I'm thinking of biting the bullet and getting a Veritas, at least I'll know for sure it works as designed. Then I can have a basis for trying to fix up vintage planes later. But I have some questions about that before I buy, would value any feedback from you guys!

I'm looking at the low angle jointer. I've read many threads here about the nuances and pros and cons of bevel up, but truth be told they are less expensive with fewer moving parts which makes it a little easier for me to buy as a first plane. All my needs are jointing for now (I'm sure smoothing with a plane would be a thousand times more fun than sandpaper, but that's for another day.) Poplar is the only wood I'll be working until I'm much more experienced. What I'm not sure of is whether the 37 degree cutting angle is going to be a problem cutting that (most of the marketing focuses on how great it is for end grain and how great the higher angles are for interlocking grain.) I don't know if 37 degrees will be a problem for straight grained fairly soft poplar, and if it is whether rehoning the blade at 33 degrees would be okay.

I also am struggling to sharpen- I've attempted to sharpen the Record 151 spokeshave blade, and the contemporary stanley 4 plane blade. I'm doing "scary sharp", with the General 809 jig, the highest grit I have is 3000. I can get the blades sharper than they were, sharp enough to shave my arm hairs a little but not easily. Sharp enough to plane pine but not poplar. I've practiced quite a few hours but at this point I think I'm just getting really good at producing mediocre results and I'm not sure what to change. Maybe the glass is flexing, maybe the jig's questionable ability to keep the iron straight, maybe I just need higher grits- I can't figure it out. I'm ready to give up and buy more expensive jigs or sharpening media, but it's another investment and I don't know where exactly my problem lies. Maybe this is another area where if I could see an experienced person do it just once it would be a simple fix, but it's hard to get that from Youtube. I don't want to give up and I'm ready to work more or spend more, I just don't know what direction to go in.

Sorry for being long winded! Any advice much appreciated. If I could just get to a point where I have a plane I know works correctly so I can start learning to joint edges with it I'll be so happy.

[Ken Parris]

If you could share your location with us, maybe someone is close enough to pass along advice. Woodworkers love to share their experiences.

Ken

[Alex Liebert]

If you could share your location with us, maybe someone is close enough to pass along advice. Woodworkers love to share their experiences.

Ken

That would be great. I'd love to buy someone a beer or lunch and talk about if they're near by. I'm in San Francisco.

[Ken Parris]

Guess I am not your answer, your a long way from East Tennessee. But a lot of guys near you, let see who shows up.

Ken

[Dave Parkis]

There some members here in your area, but I would also check to see if there are any woodworking clubs near enough to join.

[Alex Liebert]

There some members here in your area, but I would also check to see if there are any woodworking clubs near enough to join.

Good point. The local one seems to meet about 2 and a half hours from here but maybe I should go and see if I meet any people who live closer.

My post was probably way too long too, let me see if I can make some shorter questions that are easier to answer online.

[David Bassett]

... I'm in San Francisco.

You should update your profile, so your location will show with your posts.

I know of (& a little about) a couple resources in your area.

First the folks at The Crucible are great. I don't have experience with their Woodshop, but they offer Woodworking Classes. One of their weekend intro's would get you plugged into the local resources and some basic skills and exposure to tools. (Plus they host the annual local Lie-Nielsen Tool event each year.)

Another, very new, resource in your area is TheShop.build. They are brand new and I have no experience with them, but they're growing out of the ashes of the TechShop site which had a strong woodworking community and provided good access to both large tools and networking opportunities.

[Alex Liebert]

Here's detail of what I'm doing for sharpening, in case I'm doing something obviously wrong:

I use a 14" glass cabinet door. Underneathe it is a length of anti-slip mat meant for rugs. Under that is my sturdy smooth kitchen counter. I have spray glued 220 paper to the glass to hold other papers steady and I place the paper I use on top of it.

The plane blade back was far from flat when I started and had no sign of ever being sharpened. I started at 100 grit and did quite a bit of work to get to the point where lapping it scratched the whole surface (the center was low to begin with.) Worked progressively up through 3000 grit until the bottom inch was reflective like a mirror. (Here's a picture: https://i.redd.it/dhvey0ml4yp01.jpg)

I put the blade in the "General 809" jig. I do my best with a combination square to square the blade. I drew a 25 degree angle with a protractor for reference to set it using my eye, and the existing bevel, for confirmation.

The first time I had to start low on the bevel to eliminate some nicks. Then I progressed again through 3000.

End result is a shiny reflective blade that doesn't seem to cut very well in poplar but it is fine on pine.

So not sure what to change: The jig is imprecise and may not hold the blade as flat as a better one. So could be that though others can use it I need a fancier jig.

Maybe it's bad to use the base 220 paper instead of gluing each new piece, but I have seen videos of guys doing this and they end up sharp.

Maybe the glass is flexing in some way. It could be thicker and I don't know for sure if it is "float glass".

Maybe 3000 grit isn't high enough?

Those are all my best guesses.

[Alex Liebert]

You should update your profile, so your location will show with your posts.

I know of (& a little about) a couple resources in your area.

First the folks at The Crucible are great. I don't have experience with their Woodshop, but they offer Woodworking Classes. One of their weekend intro's would get you plugged into the local resources and some basic skills and exposure to tools. (Plus they host the annual local Lie-Nielsen Tool event each year.)

Another, very new, resource in your area is TheShop.build. They are brand new and I have no experience with them, but they're growing out of the ashes of the TechShop site which had a strong woodworking community and provided good access to both large tools and networking opportunities.

Thanks David! I've been to the crucible, it's a cool place (didn't know about the woodworking classes though!) I guess for the price of a new veritas plane I could take one of their classes and buy the plane in the future.

New tech shop looks cool but not at all hand tools focused, maybe monthly membership is worth opportunity to meet people.

[David Bassett]

Thanks David! ...

You're welcome & welcome here!

... New tech shop looks cool but not at all hand tools focused, maybe monthly membership is worth opportunity to meet people.

As I said no experience, but assuming they're carrying on like TechShop, "not at all hand tools focused" is a massive understatement. OTOH- sometimes power tools are useful and an active community can be good for pointers. I was only in the TechShop SF woodshop once, for a class, but the instructor was a regular and did have his own hand tools (he lugged in a backpack on BART!!?!) and seemed very knowledgeable.

ETA: also Woodcraft, in San Carlos, down the peninsula, offers classes. Last I checked their website they'd teamed up with one of the local community colleges. They have (some) tools in stock, most of their staff seems pretty knowledgeable, and they have some nice wood (at a price, think last minute extra piece mostly.) If you catch the right guy you can get really good advice.

[Andrew Seemann]

Here would be my advice. Slow down. Don't buy any more planes or jigs. Figure out how to get that #4 sharpened. Find a local woodworker who can show you how to sharpen the blade and tune it up (if possible or confirm that it is junk). There have to be thousands of woodworkers in the Bay Area. A waterstone might be easier than sandpaper, but the sandpaper should work fine. After you get the #4 to work sharpen the #8. Don't worry about the 1/100; it probably came from the factory that way. It should work good enough for now. If you get it figured out and tuned up, and it still planes concave, worry about that then. Keep your eyes open for a better #4, as well as an old #5, and a block plane. You can get a brand new expensive plane, but it won't do you any good until you learn to sharpen it. Might as well figure that out on the planes you have first.

[Alex Liebert]

Here would be my advice. Slow down. Don't buy any more planes or jigs. Figure out how to get that #4 sharpened. Find a local woodworker who can show you how to sharpen the blade and tune it up (if possible or confirm that it is junk). There have to be thousands of woodworkers in the Bay Area. A waterstone might be easier than sandpaper, but the sandpaper should work fine. After you get the #4 to work sharpen the #8. Don't worry about the 1/100; it probably came from the factory that way. It should work good enough for now. If you get it figured out and tuned up, and it still planes concave, worry about that then. Keep your eyes open for a better #4, as well as an old #5, and a block plane. You can get a brand new expensive plane, but it won't do you any good until you learn to sharpen it. Might as well figure that out on the planes you have first.

Thanks Andrew. I agree with that sentiment. Whether I end up with a new plane or an old plane I need to be able to sharpen it.

Waterstones seem like another thing that needs to be checked for flatness, adding more variables, so sandpaper for now.

Let me ask you this while I have you then - currently I'm doing the back of the blade to completion, then the low grit on the bevel til I feel a complete burr. Polish through high grits after that and I remove the burr from the back at the very end. Anything wrong with this? I've seen people take out the burr after each grit on the bevel.

[Andrew Seemann]

For a plane blade you need the back polished flat first. But just the end, that is the only part that cuts, you really don't need to have it polished super well past about a half inch. A half inch of polished back should last you years.

For the bevel you do the coarse grit to get the main bevel set, then you raise the angle a little bit so you are only sharpening the very edge. For this part you start at a kind of fine grit because you are only removing a little material. When you get an even sheen with all the scratches from the coarse grit taken out (just at the edge; you don't have to worry further up the bevel) most of the burr will be gone or close to falling off. At that point, move to a finer grit (same angle) and so on till you reach the finest one you are going to use. At that point the burr should be completely gone.

When you resharpen, you start at the pretty fine grit again at the same angle as before, you don't need to do the main bevel again for a while. That is why you only want to remove just the edge of the angle, each resharpening it gets a little bigger until finally it starts taking too long, and then you regrind the main bevel again.

This is much easier to demonstrate than explain It isn't complicated or any magic secret, it's just learning to do the right things in the right order and practicing them over and over until you get the hang of it.

[Alex Liebert]

For a plane blade you need the back polished flat first. But just the end, that is the only part that cuts, you really don't need to have it polished super well past about a half inch. A half inch of polished back should last you years.

For the bevel you do the coarse grit to get the main bevel set, then you raise the angle a little bit so you are only sharpening the very edge. For this part you start at a kind of fine grit because you are only removing a little material. When you get an even sheen with all the scratches from the coarse grit taken out (just at the edge; you don't have to worry further up the bevel) most of the burr will be gone or close to falling off. At that point, move to a finer grit (same angle) and so on till you reach the finest one you are going to use. At that point the burr should be completely gone.

When you resharpen, you start at the pretty fine grit again at the same angle as before, you don't need to do the main bevel again for a while. That is why you only want to remove just the edge of the angle, each resharpening it gets a little bigger until finally it starts taking too long, and then you regrind the main bevel again.

This is much easier to demonstrate than explain It isn't complicated or any magic secret, it's just learning to do the right things in the right order and practicing them over and over until you get the hang of it.

Thanks, I have not attempted the microbevel. Other than that it's obviously taking me much longer to polish the entire bevel, is there any reason polishing the entire bevel would be more prone to error?

[Andrew Seemann]

It's hard to polish the entire bevel without rounding it, even with a guide. Too much rounding can end up not giving you enough of a clearance angle at the cutting edge, which causes the blade to ride on the wood rather than cut.

That said there really isn't a reason to polish the entire bevel. On a normal #4, the bevel is down, so it is basically a clearance angle. The top (back) of the blade does the actual cutting, which is why you want the end of it polished. The underside doesn't touch the wood, only the edge. The only reason to go up a grit on the main bevel is if you used such a coarse grit on the main bevel that it is causing problems with the micro bevel.

You do the "microbevel" to make that cutting edge as sharp as can be. The reason to make it small is that you need to resharpen it fairly often and you want it to be fast. For example, when I need to touch up my plane blade, I hit the microlevel on the 4000 grit waterstone free hand for maybe 10-30 seconds depending on how big the microlevel has gotten, hit it on the honing wheel quick, put it back into the plane and adjust it, and go back to work. The whole process takes maybe 5 minutes.