Which Moxon Vise Hardware

[Bob Jones 5443]

I looked a bit closer at the McMaster Carr parts and prices:

			part no.	qty	unit price	extended
rods	3/4"-6 Acme, 12"	carbon steel	98935A732	2	$7.00	$14.00
handwheel, unthreaded	5", 3-spoked dished	dull cast iron	6025K38	2	$18.81	$37.62
hex nuts	3/4" Acme	carbon steel	94815A109	4	$4.22	$16.88
levelling washers	1-5/8" OD, 2-part	black oxide steel	94815A109	2	$4.09	$8.18
						$76.68

You can find handwheels that look the same elsewhere for $10 each, and you can shave a few cents off the rods if you're willing to buy a 2 foot length and cut it down. You could get regular washers that don't adjust to racking. All that would take the total down to sub-$60 list, but the two shipping charges would no doubt wipe out the savings.

And you'd still want to tap the wheels. Overall, it's starting to look like Benchcrafted is onto something. They're like the Lie-Nielsen of vise hardware. Their competitive advantage is superior fit quality with the venerable Acme thread, which produces the "ooh and ahh factor" that looks so desirable on YouTube. This seems to be the way of modern toolmaking. But I still wonder if all that's truly necessary.

I know David Eisenhauer uses rods that turn with the wheels. That takes all the problem away of finding a way to tap. It's a $60 – $70 plan, plus lumber. He seems happy with his. Maybe I'm too concerned about the ease of motion.

[David Eisenhauer]

Bob- I now realize that I never answered you in regards to whether or not I noticed any wear inside my chop holes due to the moving Acme rod in the hole. I don't notice any wear in my white oak chop chop holes when using it, but I have not taken my Moxon apart to inspect for wear. I drilled a slight slop in my Acme holes so that the rods move easily. I originally intended to insert some type of bronze bushing in the holes for the rods to slide through but did not have any bushings laying around and wanted to use the Moxon right now. I still may get some bushings (one day), but I have had good use out of the Moxon as is. Each to his own, but I do not want the rods extending outwards towards me when I use the vise. I would like to build another Moxon, same design, but shorter (less than the 24" ID I now have) and with shorter rods (less opening capacity) to be used primarily for working on my typical length/thickness drawer parts. My use of the Mcmaster Carr handwheels eliminated the issue of threading the ID of the handwheels as my handwheels just slip over the end of the Acme rod and incorporate a set screw to fix them in place. For those who order a single length of Acme rod, it is cuttable with a hack saw without issue.

[Bob Jones 5443]

David, thanks for the reply. I'm glad to hear your rod holes are holding up. I am interested to hear how easily the wheels spin closed, or whether you need to turn them every degree of the way. I suppose it doesn't matter once you're down to the final 2 mm adjustment.

I definitely see the benefit of not having the rods protrude from the front of the tool. Lots of ouch potential there! And of course, completely sidestepping the nettlesome need to tap the wheels.

One question I have about your configuration: with the Benchcrafted setup each rod is held fixed by one nut mortised into the front face of the rear jaw and a free but tightened nut behind the rear jaw. This locks the rods in pretty tightly I would guess. But with your system the rods turn, so only the mortised nut is holding the rod, is that correct? Does the front chop ever rock up and down when it's extended?

I'm going to stew on all this for a while. If I can find a machinist near me who already has the tap, wrench, and skill, I might just go that route. Or I might take the Trail of Tears and blow the big bucks on the shiny object. We'll see.

(It's funny the hoops I'll jump through to save $50 on a tool. That philosophy saw me spending more money overall on tools in 2019 than in any prior year! But I got what felt to me like good prices on all of them.)

[David Eisenhauer]

Bob, the handwheels do not "spin", but do turn easily . In use, I usually insert and hold the item to be Moxonized between the chops with one hand and push the front chop closed (up against the item) with my other hand and/or my belly. I then use the pushing hand to spin up the handwheels to eliminate the slack in the rods. Normally, for repetitive open/closes on the same item (same gap required), I tend to mostly open one end of the Moxon only. Due to the suede leather lining the chop gripping faces, it only takes minor tightening (just slightly more than contact) with the front chop to hold the item in place (hands off) and still allow me to adjust for plumb. etc. A final 1/8 turn (or so) twist on either one or both handles fully tightens the Moxon up. The downside to my Moxon is that the top of the front chop rolls outward a little when it is released from holding anything. This is due to the slightly (1/64") oversized holes I drilled for ease of rod travel. I first drilled the holes to the rod OD and it was harder to open/close the front chop due to the friction. I believe that the bronze bushings would eliminate the droop, but I am used to the slight droop and eliminate the slight outward roll or droop of the front chop when I push it closed.

[Bob Jones 5443]

David, I’m enjoying this conversation. Thanks for taking me through your process. It sounds like you have adapted quite well to your vise.

On another front, it’s official: I’m not going to try to get blank handwheels threaded locally. Today I spoke with two local machinists, one large and one small, who are both expert at tapping Acme threads. For only two parts, any cost to me would be prohibitive to have them tapped for me. That puts Benchcrafted in the driver’s seat for the ultra-smooth-spinning version they have pioneered.

Human psychology is fascinating. Just knowing a sleek, high performing tool
is available induces us to want to have it. But do we need it? How many tools can we say this about? What BC does reminds me of the business plan of many of today’s premium tool makers. They invest in the machining and know-how, guarantee their quality, and pay back their fixed costs on margins.

Benchcrafted has targeted woodworkers who care about fine work and excellent tools. I admire that aspiration. I try to make or buy excellent jigs and tools, and then hope to create work worthy of them. And in the end, BC’s markup is fair when you consider the costs of trying to do what they do. If I go ahead with making a Moxon vise, their kit will be on it.

I’m considering covering the rods with something soft when the vise is not in use, to prevent walk-by bruises.

[Jim Koepke]

If only I knew a machinist. Maybe I'll start looking up that tree. It can't cost $100 to tap two highly refined threads. Can it?

How much time will it take to drill and tap two hand wheels? Don't forget set up and clean up.

It isn't likely to be a big money saver.

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

How much time will it take to drill and tap two hand wheels? Don't forget set up and clean up.

It isn't likely to be a big money saver.

jtk

I own a manufacturing plant, and have in-house machining and tool making for my process (powder metallurgy). In my support machining, I have five CNC machining centers and a host of manual machines, including three double disc grinders, several surface grinders, etc. To consider a job, such as Acme threads, I would quote no less than $100+ per wheel, plus tooling/fixturing (manual equipment, for two holes). I would also complain after the job was complete hat I lost money!

[John Keeton]

What BC does reminds me of the business plan of many of today’s premium tool makers. They invest in the machining and know-how, guarantee their quality, and pay back their fixed costs on margins.

Benchcrafted has targeted woodworkers who care about fine work and excellent tools. I admire that aspiration. I try to make or buy excellent jigs and tools, and then hope to create work worthy of them. And in the end, BC’s markup is fair when you consider the costs of trying to do what they do.

These days I don't do the type of work you guys do, though 10-12 years ago I frequented the Neanderthal forum often and gleaned a wealth of information. In 2009 I dropped into the abyss of turning and haven't done much flat work in the last decade. But, I am now contemplating removing my Record 52 1/2 vise and installing a leg vise on the end of my bench, which is nothing like the examples you guys do, but it is serviceable for what I do. After reading every thread I could find on hardware, watching videos, searching reviews, I agree with Bob. If I go this route it will be with a Benchcrafted leg vise hardware kit. There are other ways to piece together a serviceable leg vise and save some money, and there are other mechanisms that work and work fairly well. But, I have seen nothing that has the quality, smoothness and simplicity of the BC.

[Gary Focht]

I think I’ve read the whole thread and not a single vote for 3/4” pipe clamps. I did this and I can probably open my vise 2 feet if needed (it was what I had on hand), although if I was buying parts I probably would use shorter pipes. It opens and closes smoothly, holds great, and I can’t imagine needing anything more.

[Bob Jones 5443]

I own a manufacturing plant, and have in-house machining and tool making for my process (powder metallurgy). In my support machining, I have five CNC machining centers and a host of manual machines, including three double disc grinders, several surface grinders, etc. To consider a job, such as Acme threads, I would quote no less than $100+ per wheel, plus tooling/fixturing (manual equipment, for two holes). I would also complain after the job was complete hat I lost money!

Tony, that's exactly what I found in speaking to two well qualified machine shops today. For a tiny job like this, the setup alone makes the project prohibitive. A company like Benchcrafted has this figured out: they make lots of them with a standard tooling setup, and the cash register rings every time.

So, unless you can personally invest your time, tools, and care to do this, it isn't worth it for the one-shop guy or gal who only wants one set. However, there may be enough slack in Benchcrafted's margin to provide a little business opportunity on the side, serving a niche community like ours or a national network of woodworking clubs.

[Bob Jones 5443]

But, I am now contemplating removing my Record 52 1/2 vise and installing a leg vise on the end of my bench.

How about a couple of photos of that Record vise?

[John Keeton]

Bob, it is still on my bench, but tomorrow I will take a couple pics and post them in this thread. Apologies to the OP for a minor hijack.

[Tom M King]

I wouldn't bother to buy a tap, and tap the wheels to save less than a hundred bucks.

I will add my one time experience with tapping holes in cast iron. I had to enlarge some threaded holes in a tractor, up from 5/8" to 3/4", and up from 3/4" to 7/8", and 1". I bought a giant tap wrench, off ebay, thinking that's what I needed. Turned out, I couldn't swing the big thing where I needed to anyway, so I used 8 point sockets, and a 1/2" breaker bar. The 24" long 1/2" Harbor Freight breaker bar is actually pretty nice. I used a breaker bar, so I could easily go back, and forth with the tap, without having to fumble with a ratchet.

These were stopped holes, so each needed a set of three different taps to cut threads all the way to the bottom of the holes. The 1" hole took some effort, but it didn't take any unusual amount of strength. The 7/8" hole was significantly easier, and the 3/4" holes were like cutting butter.

Recently, I had to redo a hole in cast iron, also on the same tractor, to hold a footrest on. The hole was in a tight corner. I needed to upsize a stripped 3/8" hole to 1/2". None of the 8pt. sockets would fit the taps. The only socket I had that would fit was a 12 pt. My 1/4" breaker bar was not there, so I decided to try the cheap Sunex 1/4" ratchet. Thinking it was worth risking ruining the ratchet to save the trip after the breaker bar, I used the ratchet. It didn't hurt the ratchet a bit, and it easily threaded the hole. There wasn't a small pipe in that shop to fit the little ratchet, for extra leverage, but a handle for a hydraulic jack served well.

Dark cutting oil is recommended for threading cast iron. I didn't try it without oil, or any other oil, but did use the dark oil, that came from the plumbing aisle in Home Depot.

A through hole should be a lot easier than a stopped hole, that needs the three taps.

I don't like cast iron wheels on woodworking benches anyway.

[Bob Jones 5443]

I wouldn't bother to buy a tap, and tap the wheels to save less than a hundred bucks.

Tom, yep, I've cured myself of the dalliance with tapping these wheels! Next project...

[John Keeton]

Bob, I sent you an email (not a PM) about the Record vise.