Update on the Bosch ReaXX vs Sawstop issue

[Roger Marty]

The inability to use the design to stop a blade larger than 10" is all ready a limiting factor in penetrating the commercial market. Jointers, planers, and particularly shapers spin much more mass than even a 12" blade.

An 8" Dado stack at 13/16" wide is a lot of spinning mass.

[Dave Sabo]

And I'll bet you $100 that in 2025, SawStop is still the leading cabinet saw. They're the only cabinet saw that my local stores (Woodcraft and one other) even carry.

It is not the capacitive coupling, it is probably the software.

Black-and-Decker/Stanley? Phff. Do they even sell a product with a microprocessor?

I'm with Gass. The tool companies response was pathetic as shown by Colbert.

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/hgxqxc...rica---sawstop

Roger- you view of the world is so myopic I wonder if you have blinders on ?

Stanley owns a ton of companies that utilize microprocessors. They own about a dozen security related firms as well as measurement stalwart CST/BERGER. One of the division's contracts with NASA and it ain't to supply Dustbusters for the maintence staff. Dewalt's new battery platform uses microprocessors in it too. They have the brain power necessary in spades. And the vertically integrated business to exploit a new product. They also own AeroScout - a firm specializing in RFID and realtime location services. Something way more technically complex than SS's brake module and switch.

Cabinet saws are sexy to talk about , but don't add much to the bottom line. How many of those SS do you think your local or the Quad Cities Rockler actually sell each year ? The real money is in pedaling $100-$500 portable table saws at every Lowes, HomeDepot, Menards, Sears, and ACE across the country which combined is close to 10,000 locations. All of which can provide financing in store too. Plus, wait til the infomercial boys start pedaling the stuff. I can just hear the Saw Wow guy now. " it's made in China, you know the Chinese make good stuff ".

- the market Gass was really after when he tried to get big brother to strong arm the industry.

Need further convincing ? Why do you suppose SS is trying to pedal router lifts and dust arms along with other re branded accessories now ? Because their saw is so wonderful that it sells itself in huge numbers and will continue to do so ? Don't you think there was a market for that stuff 5 years ago too? They are trying to diversify so they're not caught with their pants down when the body guards up and leave town.

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It's been reported SS has been working on a bandsaw system for a while now. They have also been reported to be close or actually entered into a deal with one of the European sliding saw manufacturers for licensing just recently.

[mreza Salav]

The technology would need serious revision for most other woodworking machines. The inability to use the design to stop a blade larger than 10" is all ready a limiting factor in penetrating the commercial market. Jointers, planers, and particularly shapers spin much more mass than even a 12" blade. Shapers in particular vary the mass rotating and - at least the good ones - run on precision bearings. Bearings take a real beating when stopped that quickly and large bearings running at higher speeds than a saw, won't fare well. The fact that SS hasn't offered a 12" saw tells me that it won't be easy or cheap to apply their design to commercial machines. Dave

Not SS but the technology is there for larger (e.g. a 14" slider) saws:

http://www.griggio.com/en/products/p...ws/unica-safe/

[Roger Marty]

Roger- you view of the world is so myopic I wonder if you have blinders on ?

Stanley owns a ton of companies that utilize microprocessors. They own about a dozen security related firms as well as measurement stalwart CST/BERGER. One of the division's contracts with NASA and it ain't to supply Dustbusters for the maintence staff. Dewalt's new battery platform uses microprocessors in it too. They have the brain power necessary in spades. And the vertically integrated business to exploit a new product. They also own AeroScout - a firm specializing in RFID and realtime location services. Something way more technically complex than SS's brake module and switch.

Cabinet saws are sexy to talk about , but don't add much to the bottom line. How many of those SS do you think your local or the Quad Cities Rockler actually sell each year ? The real money is in pedaling $100-$500 portable table saws at every Lowes, HomeDepot, Menards, Sears, and ACE across the country which combined is close to 10,000 locations. All of which can provide financing in store too. Plus, wait til the infomercial boys start pedaling the stuff. I can just hear the Saw Wow guy now. " it's made in China, you know the Chinese make good stuff ".

- the market Gass was really after when he tried to get big brother to strong arm the industry.

Need further convincing ? Why do you suppose SS is trying to pedal router lifts and dust arms along with other re branded accessories now ? Because their saw is so wonderful that it sells itself in huge numbers and will continue to do so ? Don't you think there was a market for that stuff 5 years ago too? They are trying to diversify so they're not caught with their pants down when the body guards up and leave town.

---------

It's been reported SS has been working on a bandsaw system for a while now. They have also been reported to be close or actually entered into a deal with one of the European sliding saw manufacturers for licensing just recently.

Ok, you are right that Stanley Black&Decker is an industry conglomerate that I wasn't aware of. I also completely agree that the most revenue is in peddling $100-$500 machines.
But a myopic world view with blinders on? All I'm saying is that brand value and SawStop's niche focus on higher-end tools will probably keep them going beyond 2021. Sure, they may very well lose the Jobsite saw market, and yes, we'll likely see them diversify their product line. DeWalt (Stanley's major tool brand?) seems unlikely to enter the cabinet saw market. Now what portion of SS's revenue comes from the jobsite product versus cabinet saws? No idea. I think they just came out with the jobsite saw somewhat recently (2015?), right? I highly doubt any subsidiary of Stanley Black&Decker enters the niche cabinet saw market. Not enough revenue to justify the investment. SS is a small company and I bet their revenue doesn't exceed $50m.

PM me your e-mail if you want to take my bet of $100 for whether they're still around selling brake cartridges in 2025. I'll set a calendar reminder 8 years from now ;-)

As far as vilifying Gass? From what I've read, I have respect for him. Such an "obvious" thing that wasn't being done and clearly has saved thousands of fingers. Trying to require new table saws to require the technology? I wish that were the case because the technology would then be more widespread, cheaper, and more fingers saved. Mandatory safety features makes things more expensive. The automotive industry has been complaining about that for decades. The value to society is too great. Gass claims that mass production of the technology would reduce the cost to $55 for a benchtop saw. That absolutely seems plausible to me. Economies of Scale. The Power Tool Institute claims the minimal cost is several hundred. The Power Tool Institute arguments are lousy if you ask me.

[Jim Dwight]

I am pretty sure that In read in one of these discussions, possibly at the FOG, that the patent situation is reversed in Europe. Bosch has the advantage. If they "gave up" I am confident that was just a business decision. Not enough lost sales to justify the expense. While SawStop won a decided victory, it isn't over if Bosch is willing to keep paying lawyers. Patents can and have gone all the way to the supreme court.

[David Kumm]

The Griggio video is pretty neat. Is that the Bosch technology? Looks like the blade is not damaged. Dave

[Greg Peterson]

Employing a flywheel introduces a host of additional engineering challenges to overcome.
Using a gear driven drive system would allow the implementation of a pinion gear that could laterally slide out of the drive system while simultaneously the cutterhead could be braked.
A cutterhead has far less mass to arrest than a flywheel.
Anyone know a good patent lawyer?

[Andrew J. Coholic]

The Griggio video is pretty neat. Is that the Bosch technology? Looks like the blade is not damaged. Dave

Nope. Sawstop. It was in FDM+C a few years ago.

[Roger Marty]

I just took a look at the Dado break cartridge I bought. I looked up the code of the main integrated circuit-- a 32-bit Texas Instruments DSP (digital signal processor). Implies they're doing non-trivial math.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I wish I could predict the future at 100% certainty as some here claim/seem to be able to do... lol

I'm more worried how my company will be doing in 4, 10 or more years though

[Jim Dwight]

This article seems to have the latest update, a late March statement from Bosch saying they will appeal. That means it is not close to over. All that has happened is SawStop convinced ONE JUDGE they are right. Bosch still has a lawsuit against SawStop in Illinois to resolve and then there is their appeal. Not over yet. But SawStop definitely won round one.

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/...not-yet/26066/

[John Sanford]

Employing a flywheel introduces a host of additional engineering challenges to overcome.
Using a gear driven drive system would allow the implementation of a pinion gear that could laterally slide out of the drive system while simultaneously the cutterhead could be braked.
A cutterhead has far less mass to arrest than a flywheel.
Anyone know a good patent lawyer?

Perhaps I should have simply used the term "brake disc", because that's what I have in mind. The problem with braking a jointer's cutterhead is WHERE can you apply the brake?

[Greg Peterson]

Perhaps I should have simply used the term "brake disc", because that's what I have in mind. The problem with braking a jointer's cutterhead is WHERE can you apply the brake?

Casually considering the parameters, the two things that need to be addressed are 1.) disengaging the drive and 2.) stopping the cutter head.

The drive could be a simple transmission with a final belt drive to the cutterhead, not unlike a motorcycle.

For arresting the the cutterhead, now that is a tougher nut to crack. Perhaps a brake rotor on each end of the cutterhead with enough mass to perform as needed but not hinder instantaneous stopping?

Just spit balling here and of course the devil is always in the details.

[Steven Wayne]

I'm a new SS ICS owner. I bought it because I was impressed with the quality of the saw. The brake is secondary for me. Thus far I am very happy with it.

[Edwin Santos]

Maybe there's a lawyer here that can answer this - Does SS get to recover their legal fees by prevailing over Bosch, or is the high cost of legal fees for patent enforcement just part of SS's cost of doing business? Do they get damages on top of fees? Maybe not, if the Bosch saw never saw any sales. Either way, seems like the attorneys are in the so called catbird seat while these guys duke it out.

Just imagine how much must get spent in Silicon Valley over patent disputes. Seems like being a patent litigation attorney is probably more lucrative than being a woodworker in today's world!