Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 145

Thread: Veritas Shooting Plane quite a bit out of square. How important is this?

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,441
    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Heiden View Post
    As you all might understand, I rushed out to the shop and put my DIN certified precision straightedge on the bottom of the wooden planes I made last winter. Excrement! Some of them are not totally flat anymore! What to do? Send them back?

    ( I hope you can forgive me a little bit of lighthearted sarcasm)
    Obviously they are no longer useful, happy to take the entire collection off your hands to remove your stress. I won't insult you by offering you money or to cover shipping...

    I have not used many wooden planes, but I vaguely remember seeing a procedure for fixing the sole. Then again, I think that it was not as much because they expected it to go out of flat, as it was to deal with wear and tear...

    My Local woodcraft offered a class to build a wooden hand plane, including work with the blade of some sort. Sadly, insufficient people signed up for the class.

    What I really want to do is to build a hand plane for cutting a dado for drawer bottoms.

    And, if you have a problem with your Lee Valley Stuff, contact them, they will take care of you.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Pitonyak View Post
    Obviously they are no longer useful, happy to take the entire collection off your hands to remove your stress. I won't insult you by offering you money or to cover shipping...

    I have not used many wooden planes, but I vaguely remember seeing a procedure for fixing the sole. Then again, I think that it was not as much because they expected it to go out of flat, as it was to deal with wear and tear...

    My Local woodcraft offered a class to build a wooden hand plane, including work with the blade of some sort. Sadly, insufficient people signed up for the class.

    What I really want to do is to build a hand plane for cutting a dado for drawer bottoms.

    And, if you have a problem with your Lee Valley Stuff, contact them, they will take care of you.
    Lee Valley makes one, I am highly tempted to send them some green myself...and yes, I would also like to try my hand at lane making at some point. I did not know the plane making class at the local wood craft had been cancelled for lack of interest.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    3,222
    FYI, received my Veritas left hand shooting plane today. According to my Starrett square and both Veritas and Woodpecker straight edges, it is absolutely dead on 90 degrees and flat across the full length - couldn't get a .0015 feeler guage (smallest I own) under the straight edges anywhere along the full length (left/right sides & center of sole).

    Nice job Rob...thanks. I'm going to enjoy using this.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    350
    That's good to hear Phil. That's been my experience with my other veritas planes, so I'm sure I just got unlucky. I sent mine back at the end of last week. Not sure if a replacement is on its way now or they will send it out when they receive my defective one. It's a tool I really look forward to using, so I'm waiting like a child waiting for Christmas morning right now. If I don't hear anything or receive any notifications in a few days I'll call CS for an update.

    Kesh, I didn't not try it with a feeler gauge, as mine was very well beyond the acceptable tolerances, easily in the hundredth of an inch range rather than thousandth. When I spoke to customer service I was told that .005" was the tolerance for these planes, so at .006" I wouldn't worry about it, I don't think that would affect my work...but of course if it bothers you their customer service is top notch. Just be prepared to wait for another one to get shipped out to you.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Posts
    103
    Hasin - Thanks. I actually shot them an email on Sunday showing them some pics with the observed gap, and by Monday PM they already acknowledged and agreed to send me a replacement. Top notch customer service, indeed. But yeah, .005" tolerance, I can believe it, and mine happened to be right on the fence. They could've have just told me, and that would be just fine with me (as it seemed to work fine when I tried it), but it sure was nice for them to set up the exchange immediately without a fuss.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Hayes, Virginia
    Posts
    14,760
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Dean View Post
    There is no such thing as a defect free manufacturing process. The difference between good companies and bad ones comes down to how they handle defects when they arise.

    Just the fact that the OP has direct feedback and attention from the company president tells me all I need to know.
    Defect Free Manufacturing is the norm when parts are produced per the product specifications. For instance I have accepted cracks in nuclear plant primary reactor coolant piping because the length was acceptable per the engineering specifications, the cracks were not defects they were discontinuities.

    First, the term defect is defined as an unacceptable discontinuity per the product specifications.
    Second, a discontinuity is an acceptable condition when its characteristics fall within the acceptable range of the manufacturing specifications.

    I suspect that Lee Valley often replaces tools that are within their production specifications just because a customer complains. This IMO is the mark of a company that cares about their customers even when their customers are wrong or lack the experience to evaluate their purchase.

    You guys are killing me with your attempts to measure within 0.001" in a woodworking shop using uncertified M&TE with temperatures that are all over the map. Get some training
    .

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,582
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Outten View Post
    accepted cracks in nuclear plant primary reactor coolant piping because the length was acceptable per the engineering specifications, the cracks were not defects they were discontinuities..
    Wow, that's a scary thought if the cracks weren't just discontinuities

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Outten View Post
    You guys are killing me with your attempts to measure within 0.001" in a woodworking shop using uncertified M&TE with temperatures that are all over the map. Get some training
    .
    100% agreed and that's why dead square and dead straight are terms I never use to describe my process, setting or work -- as a woodworker. Wood moves as we all know and dead flatness -- even in the case of man-made lumber -- is almost non-existent over time.

    I couldn't even trust my precision squares and feeler gauges as being as accurate as the measuring tools Lee Valley uses in its production shops. If my straight edge and feeler gauge said my sole was 0.006" off, I wouldn't say for sure it was outside the specified tolerance. In fact, I wouldn't return any of my Veritas tools as long as they produced the results I wanted, regardless of if they were inside their respective tolerance limits or not. So far, I have produced great results in my woodwork from the Veritas planes I use and that's what really matters. Even with hand tools that are dead-on with the spec., many hand tool users fail to joint an edge true and square or put together an assembly that is square and out of wind! Your skills count more that what you hold in your hands (and that is why Paul Sellers can flatten a long board with a #4 while many still struggle the same job with a #7).

    Simon
    Last edited by Simon MacGowen; 03-22-2017 at 11:51 PM.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Hayes, Virginia
    Posts
    14,760
    The decision concerning what is a discontinuity and what is a defect is an engineering responsibility. Everything we manufacture is built to a project tolerance...plus or minus some dimension that is cast in concrete in the project specifications that are usually developed based on a national code. The tighter the tolerance the more the product costs to produce. Can you imagine a utility trailer that was manufactured to a tolerance of +- 0.004", it would be so expensive that only the federal government could afford to purchase one.

    Perfect doesn't exist, period. Even if you could machine a perfect part there is no such thing as a perfect measuring instrument as they are all manufactured to a specification with an acceptable engineering specified tolerance. Note that in many cases the temperature that a part and the instrument used to measure it are often taken into consideration by engineering when they produce a specification. Temperature and humidity controlled Measuring and Test Equipment (M&TE) labs exist to provide a space used to inspect very high tolerance parts when a project requires that level of quality.

    Now since wood is not an engineered material there are way to many variables to consider to even produce a high tolerance product. The environment where any tree grows is so widely variable and uncontrolled it just isn't possible to specify any high tolerance material characteristics.

    Not one word of what I have said here is my opinion. There are national codes and organizations that make the decisions concerning the proper use and application of M&TE. My training was provided in accordance with the American Society of Non-Destructive Testing of which I was a certified Level III Examiner for many years. I was certified to develop inspection procedures and create certification tests for Level I and II Inspectors. I worked in Quality Control and as a Construction Engineer in maintenance and construction of nuclear and fossil plants and the construction of nuclear Navy vessels as well as general construction projects like bridges and large welding fabrication. What my experience and education has taught me over decades of working very large projects is that when there is a doubt about the proper use of M&TE consult a Master Machinist if you can find one.
    .
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 03-23-2017 at 9:26 AM.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Posts
    7,254
    Blog Entries
    7
    Keith makes an excellent point, you might consider your checking tools before considering the plane to be out of square or out of flatness. I have a certified granite checking block and a precision straightedge (not the one I use as a winding stick, but another made for planes), outside of that I don't own precision checking squares. Precision squares meaning checking blocks for squareness, not brass or steel squares, double squares, etc which could easily be out of square by .001-.002" and I would never notice.

    So to assume the plane is out of square is to assume the square is square, where the square can be out of square the plane square.

    Even the table of Bridgeport mill is considered perfectly fine and acceptable if it's only out by a few thousands over the course of its travel. (A few is 2, not 5 or 10).
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    9,469
    The 7" Vesper Square has a maximum deviation of 0.010mm or 0.0004".


    • Regards from Perth

      Derek (putting in a plug for Chris Vesper )

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    2,151
    Keith has this one nailed. I can picture the smile on that master machinists face when you tell him that you checked his work with an "engineers square" and a feeler gauge and found it faulty.
    Jim

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Hayes, Virginia
    Posts
    14,760
    That's great Derek but its a tool that is used visually and you can't see 0.0004" with an unaided human eye. Even with a feeler gauge, if you had one that accurate, I really doubt you can apply that level inspection quality on a piece of wood or steel for that matter. Its a great instrument but not practical to use in a woodworking shop.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    9,469
    Keith, you do know I was teasing?

    Chris makes superb tools, but the pleasure lies in using them, and knowing how well they are made, not in their actual accuracy.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Hayes, Virginia
    Posts
    14,760
    I once machined a plywood template on my CNC Router that was used to provide a boundary for some tradesmen to lay marble around a circle. There was another company who was machining a ten foot diameter bronze medallion to be installed in the circle. One of the carpenters used his measuring tape to check my template and decided that my template was out of tolerance. I couldn't help but laugh at him and told him that he needed a more accurate measuring instrument if he was going to reject my template and he didn't have a clue what I meant. Although the template was made of plywood it was way more accurate than any measuring tape

    He made it his mission to be on the job the day we installed the bronze medallion and could not believe how close the fit was as he had decided that my template was too small. He didn't know enough to realize the the flat end of his measuring tape wasn't the best way to measure an inside radius. He also didn't understand that the unaided human eye with 20/20 vision can only discern measurements to 1/64th of an inch. The cumulative error of his instrument, technique and physical limitations was beyond his expertise
    .

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •