Contributor
Stewie, for objectivity, perhaps you can find us another article - one on the stability of grey iron? Do you believe that grey iron is more stable than ductile iron? And out of curiosity, where would you place the stability of wood (as in woodies)?
Regards from Perth
Derek
[OP]
Member
William, I have to say this is the first time I've ever had an issue with a veritas plane that affected it's functionality. It is a little unfortunate that two planes with flaws slipped past QC but as Barney said, they are human and I suppose errors do occur.
I don't subscribe to rowden broadcast emails, but I remember reading a review by rowden where he said he didn't consider veritas to be of the same quality as lie Nielsen and clifton. I must say, I found his arguments in that article to be rather weak and unconvincing. Other than this shooting plane fiasco my experience with these finely designed tools has been stellar.
Contributor
I will take it up with LV. I have flattened the sole of every plane I own now, well flattened to something I think will work anyway. My jointer has quite a way to go yet. I use it often and it has not stopped me getting good joints but flat may be easier.
My General cast iron table saw is made in Canada. They leave the castings outside in the Quebec winter/summer for two years before machining so the metal won't move; mine has not.
It is one thing for castings to move later but for a shooting plane to leave the factory that out of square says they have no idea about ISO standards or even rudimentary QC.
The thickness of the metal may not always be a good thing to stay flat. Stresses in thicker metal may be greater. It all depends how the casting is relaxed.
Last edited by William Fretwell; 03-17-2017 at 7:33 AM.
Contributor
I haven't heard of any "attempt to save face" from Lee Valley. Please folks, be careful here. We have the potential to seriously damage the reputation of a well-established, well-respected firm. Go out into your shops and measure the flatness of your planes' soles and report back like Derek did. I'm going to.Originally Posted by William Fretwell
William: Im not clear - were your planes out of flat when you bought them, or did you just recently have to flatten them? How far out of flat - one thousandth or four - "markedly so" is kind of vague.
Edit: My BU Jointer is 0.001 out at the heel, near the center. LA Jack has a 0.002 hollow on the far "port" side, behind the mouth and is dead flat everywhere else. BU Smoother is dead flat all the way. I did not check any of these tools when new so I cant comment on whether the metal has moved. For comparison, I checked a Tom Bussey-prepared jointer I bought "second hand" and my Wood River #3. They were both dead flat. Personally, I'm not convinced I need to worry about this - all 3 LV tools perform flawlessly.
Last edited by Frederick Skelly; 03-17-2017 at 9:10 AM.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
“If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”
Contributor
You paint with a pretty broad brush here.
First of all, I doubt that General leaves castings outside for two years when normalizing will serve the same function at a fraction of the cost of tying up two years worth of casting production. They're making saws, not wine.
Secondly, the fact that a non-compliant product left the factory indicates a breakdown in the Quality Management System (QMS), but not a lack of understanding of the ISO standard or a quality management system. A properly run ISO registered QMS anticipates that non-compliant product will be produced. Even six sigma zealots will agree that the combined six sigma under the bell curve only covers 99.7% of production. What's really important (and an indication of how their QMS is working) is whether they conduct a root cause analysis and deploy corrective actions.
Sharp solves all manner of problems.
Contributor
Hasin -
Sorry to read of the problem you encountered - we'll put it right to your satisfaction (as we would do for any customer...).
I've asked our VP of R&D to get ahold of your return, and will have it measured on a CMM when it gets back, and let you know what we find. Will also see what I can do about getting a plane to you more quickly.
As for other comments in this thread - there's not much upside to arguing with opinion. We have decades of empirical evidence that makes it easy to stand behind what do.
Cheers -
Rob
Last edited by Chris Padilla; 03-17-2017 at 1:30 PM. Reason: Removed political content.
I had heard of a few cases of this so I diligently checked my plane when it arrived. It was out of square. Not sure where the QA was failing on this model but, the fact that it occurs at all would seem to make it an anomaly compared to other Veritas items discussed hither and yon. I returned mine and the CS rep checked the replacement himself before sending it. Nothing I have could detect any problem with the replacement and it has been a joy to use.
Last edited by glenn bradley; 03-17-2017 at 1:24 PM.
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".
– Samuel Butler
Member
If I had a plane with any defect,I'd just send it back, as your guarantee is impeccable, and everyone here knows it. Years ago I had a small problem with a block plane, which I offered to repair myself. But, your staff insisted upon sending another plane.
As a toolmaker who hand made or hand machined(an actual term! Means manually machined, not by CNC.) every tool,I know that once in a while something can slip through, even in my comparatively small shop in the museum. I made a coach axle 3/16" too short one time, though I will say that it was probably due to the 3 view drawings that the Wheelwright would send. They showed the SAME object with different lengths in different views!!Happily,he retired. It was immediately lengthened in the huge lathe I had in the shop at that time. Those coached generated a LOT of income hauling happy visitors around town!! But,I took responsibility for it as no one else was equipped to deal with it-or would drop everything to fix the matter. If anyone is curious as to how I LENGTHENED an axle: There was always a 5/8" thick welded on ring on the inboard end of all the axles to butt against the inboard end of the wooden hub. I just turned 3/16" off that thick ring. Had the wagon back on the street in an hour. It would have been MUCH more trouble had the axle been TOO LONG!!
That's the way I know your company operates.
Last edited by Chris Padilla; 03-17-2017 at 1:31 PM. Reason: Removed political content.
Member
I didn't check all my Veritas planes, and didn't take photos of all the planes that I checked, but everything I checked looks the same as they did when new. My Custom Bench Plane 5-1/2 Jack has a little light showing at the tail, perhaps .001" and my Shooting Plane also shows that it is out of square ever-so-slightly, but that is the way they have always been. Pictured is my LAJ, which I believe is my oldest Veritas Bench Plane. Approximately 9 years old now and still dead flat. I don't doubt that it is possible to get a new Veritas plane that is out of tolerance, but I am skeptical of claims that these planes are less stable over time than other makes.
Contributor
For what it's worth, my Low Angle Jack is dead flat and the sides are perfectly square. It's a great shooting plane, and has been for seven years.
Last edited by Chris Padilla; 03-17-2017 at 1:31 PM. Reason: Quoted political content removed.
Sharp solves all manner of problems.
Member
This is an interesting thread as I have built furniture with my Veritas planes for so long without any concerns. But I will check all my Veritas planes as Derek suggested. But first, those who plan to do the checking must make sure they have a reliable gear to do the checking: a true square and straight edge.
I can't but wonder why ANY Veritas customers would try to fix a new Veritas product themselves when a return pre-paid shipping label is included in every shipment. Elsewhere I also read that people were asking how they should lap (read: flatten) a new Veritas chisel, etc. Would you try to look under the hood when your brand new $50,000 SUV is delivered to your door with some funny noise? I wouldn't.
I hope Rob will share with us whatever they find out after his R&D people have had a chance to look at the returned plane. That should be a priority matter for their manufacturing engineers.
Simon
Contributor
Regarding the recent Rowden messaging, it's probably just David Savage (who works for them) expressing the same opinion he had 3 years ago and times before that: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...n-bench-planes
He prefers lie Nielsen and Clifton and likes to share his opinion. If you'd like more of it, you can buy his DVDs.
[OP]
Member
Thanks Rob. I have no doubt that you guys will make it right, I've been using Veritas tools for a while now and have never been disappointed (by the tool or the customer service). Not so sure about the wiretapping though...
I feel a bit guilty and must apologise for the turn the thread took - The thread was meant to get advice on whether this is usable or a deal breaker; I tried to preclude this kind of discussion with my first couple of lines in the original post but here we are.
For what it's worth, I have a tool chest full of veritas tools (and one infill plane) and I checked all of them for straightness and squareness where applicable as per Derek's suggestion. They are all pretty much dead on. I'd post pictures but that would be rather protracted. The infill plane is not flat despite my many efforts but that's a little out of scope. It still works just fine though.
20170307_225450.jpg
In fact the only other time I 'had' to call customer service was when my BU Jack plane tote and knob were rather plain looking and it was bugging me. I felt silly calling and saying 'I would like a new tote and knob because the one I got was rather plain' but Hal sent me replacements right away, along with prepaid shipping for the old ones!
Last edited by Hasin Haroon; 03-17-2017 at 10:08 AM.
Contributor
Rob,
As a long time Six Sigma Zealot, my zealotry can't let slide your incorrect quotation of the facts. True Six Sigma is not 99.7%, that's not even 3 Sigma (regardless of if you are looking at long or short term capability). True Six Sigma means that there are only 3 defects in a million opportunities. More like 99.999999% without defects. In my experience, it's very rare that a place like Lee Valley even attains 2 Sigma as there are just two many things to go wrong in the manufacturing process. Each manufacturing step is an opportunity for a defect, and since the yield of each step is multiplied by the yield of the next to get Rolled Throughput Yield, you can never even come close to true Six Sigma performance.
As you correctly state, there are a lot of ISO factories that produce a lot of defects. Having a standardized process for manufacturing means little if you don't follow it or implement investigations as to why failures occur when they do happen.
Contributor
For what it's worth and I'm no machinist. I have five LV planes from jointer to block and based on this thread I checked them all with what I have, an engineers square and a straight edge. The only problem I found was some glue residue or something similar on the block plane. I fail to see what good it does to present this thread when the simplest way to an end is to contact LV and problem solved. I'm sure it would be the same with LN. I'm not a SME on this stuff but was in my career a SME on other things. Easiest way to an end is the shortest way in 99.7 percent of the issues. Works almost every time.
Jim
Reply With Quote
