Upgrade or UPGRADE?....

[Joe Shinall]

I currently have a 2HP Grizzly G1029Z Dust collector. I have a small shop, only run one machine at a time but still have big machines. List of machines are:

Grizzly 15" planer with helical head
Grizzly 8" jointer with helical head
Delta Unisaw 3HP 10"
Grizzly 19" Bandsaw
Performax 16-32 Drum Sander
Future I will also have a large shaper

I have one main branch line running into my shop from an attached outbuilding where the DC sits. From here I use Rockler's 4" flex hose to attach to each machine.

Should I upgrade this unit to a filter on top and a separator or should I just go and get a small cyclone DC? I was looking at the Laguna CFlux 2HP unit. I only have 7 feet ceilings in the DC room so I can't go too tall.

Which way would some of you recommend? I would love to save the money and upgrade the Grizzly but is the Laguna or something comparable ($1500 or less range) work that much better?

[Brice Rogers]

With your DC in a separate building, I'm wondering if you could use a separator/thien baffle/cyclone and just vent the rest outside ??

I use my DC primarily for wood turning and it is mandatory for me to use a separator as the curls of wood can be several feet long and they'll jam up the impeller or the very coarse guard in front of it. So, I needed to keep that stuff from trying to go through the impeller. I realize that you don't have the same sort of media to work with. The benefit of having a separator before a filter is that the filter stays cleaner much longer. A cleaner filter may make your DC system work a bit better. But if you vent outside, you don't need a filter and in theory you should have more suction.

I built a Thien baffle (google it - - there is a lot of info out there) and it appears to dump about 95% of the dust, chips and curlys into a garbage can. In many respects it is similar to a cyclone separator except it is shorter in height. Because I live in a mild climate, I don't worry about heat loss/make-up air, so I just vent the rest outside. I don't notice any sawdust, or chips on the ground below the vent.

[Jim Becker]

General "rule of thumb"...you cannot really have "too much dust collection", so the more capable, the better. Dust collection is about moving large volumes of air at low pressure which in turn moves the dust and chips efficiently. So if you can find a way to up-size your setup, that will be a good thing. The "size of your shop" is less important than the machines you need to service (within reason, of course, due to duct work considerations) and you have some tools that absolutely will benefit from "more" than they will from "less".

[Jim Andrew]

I have similar equipment, and I upgraded from a 2hp cyclone to a 3hp. It does a fair job, but 5hp would do better. Sanders are hard to collect from. The 15" planer seems the easiest. I removed the 4" from the unisaw and took a piece of 6" pipe and bent it to fit the hole. Big improvement. Used to plug right where the chips left the cabinet. Look at other brands with longer cone as they don't plug the filter so quick. Sanders plug the filter anyway.

[Joe Shinall]

So basically sell the Grizzly and buy the cyclone instead of putting money into the Grizzly is what I'm taking from these so far. The sander hardly ever gets used. Maybe once every 2 months, so I can deal with the filter problems from it when they arise. I would love to get a 5HP but budget and space just won't allow for a large unit. There's no good way to run duct to each machine in my shop and definitely not a good way to run something as big as 6" to my Unisaw. It's in the middle of the shop and I can't leave permanent pipe in place as it gets moved around a good bit (on wheels) so that's why I use the expanding flex duct.

I can't really vent outside because of neighbors. I would be shooting right into their yard. I have looked into a thien baffle and if I upgraded my Grizzly to a filter and separator, that's the way I would go. But if it's just better to go up to a cyclone unit, then that's what I'll do. I just want to get the most for the money.

[Andy Giddings]

If you are asking whether the switch to a Laguna 2HP unit would be significantly better than converting your existing 2HP unit to a 2 stage - I would argue no. Unless the impeller size is significantly different (which often requires more HP) then its going to be incremental.

How long is the duct run from your DC to the machine? What's the diameter of the duct? How long is the 4" flex? What's the impeller size on the Grizzly as some come with a smaller impeller (11") which can be switched out for a 12 giving you a boost. Certainly if you're going to invest in a good filter making the unit a two stage is vital unless you enjoy frequent cleaning

[James Gunning]

Joe,

Since you have no separation currently, either the Laguna or marrying your blower with a cyclone and filter would be a massive improvement. If you want to roll your own, your blower with either the Oneida SDD XL, or the eBay cyclones (former East Canoga?) would work very well. Combine those with a Wynn filter (or, see thread about new retailer for filters) and you will have a capable system. The raw truth is if you want to upgrade to the point you are capturing most of the really unhealthy sub-mircron dust, you need a 3HP+ blower turning a 14-16" impeller. A minimum 6" duct to each machine and a larger 7-8" duct for a mainline. You need somewhere around 800-1000 CFM at the machine to achieve that. It won't happen with a 2HP blower and the 12.75" impeller you currently have.

If you get an efficient enough cyclone, you actually might be able to vent outside. Usually, so little dust and virtually no chips get by the cyclone. Several folks have reported that what does get by is essentially carried away by the wind. If the neighbor doesn't complain about the current noise, running a cyclone might not bother him. Worth a try and you can add the filter if it doesn't work.

In any event I urge you to stay away from 4" hose and ducting. It has too small a cross section to fully utilize the capability of even a 1HP blower, let alone 2HP or larger. I proved this in my own shop with a 1HP blower. I know the machines often have 4" ports. Shame that the manufacturers settled on that because it so chokes the high airflow that properly working dust collection demands. Many here are using 4" hose in some places. With a really big blower, it can work OK, but won't be optimum.

[Brice Rogers]

Joe,

First, you need to do what you want to do. So I am not trying to talk you out of what you want to do.

But, when I compare what you have with what you are thinking of buying:
Horsepower: both are 2 HP. So they both remove the sawdust about the same.
Bag/filter - the Griz is 2.5 micron and the Laguna is 1` micron ??
CFM - about the same
Exhaust: into an out building (so - -is 1 micron or 2.5 micron an issue?)
Cost: about $1500 to buy the Laguna

If there aren't people in the "out building", then how much does it matter if the filter catches 1 micron or 2.5 micron?

It seems like the Laguna offers a little benefit, but perhaps not $1500 worth.

Alternatives?: If your existing system removes sawdust okay, then perhaps keep it. If you want better suction and dust removal, the Laguna isn't going to do much for you. For a lot less than $1500, you could add either a cyclone or Thien baffle to your existing set-up. If you need filtration down to 1 micron, then consider replacing your bag with a better filter.

For about $500 you could get a Griz G1030Z2P 3 HP DC. Or for $1100 you could get a 4 HP Griz.

Just some thoughts to consider...

[Joe Shinall]

Some good feedback happening. So the longest run is about 25 feet, which is my tablesaw. The rest are about 15 foot runs. I can use 6" to go about 10 feet of that run, but my machines are all on wheels and they have to be moved out in order to use them so unless someone knows of a 6" flex hose that I can't find, I have to run 4" flex hose that allows me to connect to the machines from there.

In the world of dust collectors, I'm clueless as to if I need a cyclone or not. I realize the HP is the same between the Grizzly and the Laguna I am looking at, but just not sure if the cyclone is that much better than the regular or not. If I can just go up in HP and get better results, I would love to just go up to the 3 or 4HP Grizzly. I'm not worried about the microns at all on the bag, just the height of the unit is the biggest problem, I have to stay under 80" tall so the 4HP is out of the question, but the 3HP Grizz is in play.

I want good suction most of all. I would like to be able to have a can to empty vs a bag, but I've been emptying bags for so long, it's not a make or break deal. Basically that's not a $1000 difference in my opinion.

Anymore opinions on just going with a 3HP Grizzly for what I am looking for?

[andy bessette]

I just picked up a like new 3 hp Grizzly for $250. But, if money were no object, I would have held out for a 3 hp cyclone with canister filter.

[Dan Friedrichs]

The cyclone is only helpful if you're using it to separate most of the dust out before it hits the filter, in order to increase the length of time the filter can be used before it needs to be cleaned/replaced. If you had an arbitrarily large filter, you would NOT want a cyclone, because it adds resistance.

You seem like an ideal candidate for venting outside. Just use a Thien-style separator to catch the visible chips, and let the rest blow away. For years, I had a 3HP blower with a Thien baffle and an exhaust to outside that was about 12" off the ground. There was never any visible dust outside.

[Chris Padilla]

Some good feedback happening. So the longest run is about 25 feet, which is my tablesaw. The rest are about 15 foot runs. I can use 6" to go about 10 feet of that run, but my machines are all on wheels and they have to be moved out in order to use them so unless someone knows of a 6" flex hose that I can't find, I have to run 4" flex hose that allows me to connect to the machines from there.

There are plenty of sources of 6" flex hose. There is no reason to drop down to 4".

[Andy Giddings]

Joe, are you running any smooth duct from the DC to your machines or is it all flex? 6inch flex as stated is available but you'll get more bang for your buck if you run smooth duct as far as possible and only use flex for the last few feet. As you need to move machines around, have the duct running to a reasonably central point on your ceiling, then drop it down a few feet to just above head height and use flex from there. If the table saw is some distance from this central point, use a branch in the duct, then run that duct branch close to your saw with another drop/flex with blast gate. For 2HP 6inch duct is optimal.

IMHO I would get the duct sorted first, then a baffle (almost free if its home made) and if you aren't getting the results you want then look at the DC. As Dan states, a cyclone and better filter are not necessary in your case

[Jim Becker]

There are plenty of sources of 6" flex hose. There is no reason to drop down to 4".

Exactly. 5" and 6" are readily available. I have both in my shop in addition to some 4".

[Joe Shinall]

Didn't mean any confusion as I know there is standard flex duct in 5 and 6 inch. The type of Rockler flex I meant was their stuff that stretches out easily and comes back. I have to move these sometimes 10 feet across the shop in order to use. Regular flex just kinks. At least the 4" stuff I've used has.

I have a 4" straight tube running from the DC now about 10 feet and then run the Rockler (I think it's called Expandable) hose from there. It's the one that goes from 3 or 4 feet up to like 20 or 25 feet. I cannot run permanent duct to all tools because the configuration of my shop changes as to what I'm working on. If I'm doing large cabinets, everything gets pushed to the very back. If I'm doing cutting boards or smaller stuff, everything gets moved to however long the boards are in order to get them through each machine.

I also can't vent outside, not only because the neighbors yard is right there, but because if I cut a hole in the side of the out building, it's going to probably be too loud as I run it sometimes as late as midnight or 1 am. I soundproofed the room with good insulation and scared that will unproof it.

Before I found this Rockler expandable hose, I could never get the regular 4" flex hose to work the way I needed it to. It's 20 feet from the PVC run to the front of my shop where I sometimes need the hose run to.

But I think right now what I need to do as stated, is come up with better ducting (try and do 6" but can't run it any further than where it's at now) and a baffle and go from there. I don't necessarily see a problem with my DC right now, other than I know it can be better. I seem to get all the chips out of my planer and jointer. I just think the table saw, miter saw, and sander could be better.