Marking Gauge - clone of Tite-Mark

[James Waldron]

Andrew, here is a post on my comparison of the two:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...as-Wheel-Gauge

I am wondering if the less expensive copy is infringing on any patents or other intellectual property.

jtk

Was wondering the same thing. Or even the ethics of copying it.

When the Titemark was developed, there was the possibility of filing for a utility patent, a design patent, and possibly a copyright registration of some aspects of the design. If none of these is done, the design passes into the public domain and is freely available to be reverse engineered and copied.

No one prevented Glen-Drake from seeking protection of their intellectual property. Economic considerations may have done so, but that comes with the territory for thinly capitalized businesses.

It is also possible that Glen-Drake applied for protection and such application(s) was/were denied. The result is much the same as never have applied in the first place. The design becomes part of the public domain.

Copying of a design in the public domain is legally permissible. Indeed, enabling the public to practice inventions (after expiration or lapse of a patent if one is obtained) is a fundamental purpose that underlies the grant of a (time limited) patent monopoly in the first instance. In the view of many, this last facet of the system defines the ethics of copying a design. If the design is in the public domain, it is ethically permissible to copy it in that view.

In the view of others, a more restrictive view is that it is not ethical to copy a design developed by an individual or small business, particularly one that can't afford the costs of intellectual property protection. While such a concept seem noble at a glance, it is prone to a troublesome lack of precision: the vast majority would agree that Glen-Drake is a small business in this context. But how about, say, Gramercy Tools, with a number of people on board. Then consider Lie Nielsen or Veritas: compared to many woodworking tool makers, they are pretty large. On the other hand, compared to Irwin or Dewalt, they are pretty small. Where does one draw the line? Because of the vague and imprecise nature of such a precept, it is not a common approach.

In the end, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

[Phil Mueller]

Hi Andrew, I'll chime in here also. I have the Tite-Mark as well as the single and dual marking gauges from Veritas. As others have said, the Tite-Mark is by far my favorite if for no other reason than the ease to dial in a very accurate measurement. The Veritas single wheel gauge works fine and I use it often as well.

The Veritas dual wheel just doesn't do it for me. I've used it, I can get it to work, but just not real convenient. Instead, I ordered a number of dual wheels for the Tite-Mark...much better solution in my opinion.

If you'd like to try the Veritas dual wheel gauge, I'd be happy to loan it to you. Just PM me if interested.

[Derek Cohen]

I think that wheel gauges rock! I have a couple of Tite-Marks, a bunch of Veritas, and even one I built.

The only adjustable ones I have are the TM. They are beautifully made and the ergonomics are exceptional. Having said this, a fine adjuster is of relatively low importance for most set ups. I like particularly the stainless steel Veritas with the off-set fence, and sans fine adjuster. These are now only available in brass (I snapped up two in SS when they were offered - an amazing bargain at the time). Also exceptional. I like their greater heft over the TM.

Each gauge has a different purpose. The Veritas are easier to set up when dovetailing. The TM are preferred when dialling in a specific measurement. The dual arm Veritas is capable of offset mortice-and-tenon marking, which a Kinshiro cannot do.

Using double wheels to mark mortice-and-tenon joints is a waste of time, in my experience. I have tried with dedicated- and paired wheels. The lines cut are too faint to be helpful. The weak area of a wheel gauge is that the lines are fine (that is good) but become finer and fainter when doubled up (double pressure needed). That is not good. Better to use two gauges for the two lines, or to use the Veritas double arm gauge (which is effectively two gauges since the arms can be fixed to a specific offset). Do not try and use the double arm gauge as a single gauge as it runs into the same issue as the double wheel.



Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Better to use two gauges for the two lines, or to use the Veritas double arm gauge (which is effectively two gauges since the arms can be fixed to a specific offset). Do not try and use the double arm gauge as a single gauge as it runs into the same issue as the double wheel.

My reading on this is to mark each of the mortise or tenon sides separately, which makes good sense.

jtk

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I have the veritas. For a long time I thought the lines it left were too fine to be practical. Recently I took the blade off, and honed the flat side on a 1000 grit stone. For whatever reason it now leaves a much better line.

As far as copying goes, aren't they all just copies of the older Stanley model?

[Rich Riddle]

The patent for the Tite Mark in the USA is US D517931 S1. You are not supposed to copy a patented item, even for personal use. But no one really goes after someone who makes a copy for himself. Additionally, companies that manufacture clones at the end of a patent life don't wait until after the 20 year patent expires to make the clones, they only wait that long to sell the clones. The day after the Fein patent expired on the oscillating tool, Bosch and several other manufacturers had their versions up for sale.

Was wondering the same thing. Or even the ethics of copying it.

[J. Greg Jones]

That patent is for the Veritas Micro-Adjust gauge, although the patent does include a reference to the Tite Mark. I could be mistaken, but I believe Drake chose not to patent his products due to the high cost of defending a patent against the clone makers.

The patent for the Tite Mark in the USA is US D517931 S1. You are not supposed to copy a patented item, even for personal use. But no one really goes after someone who makes a copy for himself. Additionally, companies that manufacture clones at the end of a patent life don't wait until after the 20 year patent expires to make the clones, they only wait that long to sell the clones. The day after the Fein patent expired on the oscillating tool, Bosch and several other manufacturers had their versions up for sale.

[Mike Henderson]

The patent for the Tite Mark in the USA is US D517931 S1. You are not supposed to copy a patented item, even for personal use. But no one really goes after someone who makes a copy for himself. Additionally, companies that manufacture clones at the end of a patent life don't wait until after the 20 year patent expires to make the clones, they only wait that long to sell the clones. The day after the Fein patent expired on the oscillating tool, Bosch and several other manufacturers had their versions up for sale.

I think that's the design patent for the Veritas. Design patents are different from utility patents (the patents most people think of). It protects the design (shape) of the item and not the function.

The only protection offered by a patent is the right to assert it against others who infringe the patent - and infringement is a matter for the civil courts.

Mike

[david charlesworth]

The Taylor tools gauge is a terrible design.

One of the essentials for good marking gauge technique, is firm sideways force, pressing the fence against the work.

Lo and behold the Taylor gauge has a huge lump where the sides of a finger should press.

It is c##p.

David Charlesworth

[lowell holmes]

I have both Veritas wheel gages. They both do their job quite well. I have other marking gages as well.

[paul cottingham]

The patent for the Tite Mark in the USA is US D517931 S1. You are not supposed to copy a patented item, even for personal use. But no one really goes after someone who makes a copy for himself. Additionally, companies that manufacture clones at the end of a patent life don't wait until after the 20 year patent expires to make the clones, they only wait that long to sell the clones. The day after the Fein patent expired on the oscillating tool, Bosch and several other manufacturers had their versions up for sale.

Honestly, even though I'm not especially well off, I'll honour the Tite Mark patent holder by not buying a clone. I'm very uncomfortable with supporting people who run around in gray areas of the law like that.

I'll continue to bumble along with my veritas ones, or my ancient wooden ones, or save my money. Fundamentally, I'm not in such a hurry that I can't just use my veritas ones.

[allen long]

Stan,

I think you should tell us how you REALLY feel about the Veritas!

I had the Veritas micro adjust and sent it back. I didn't care for it at all. But my three other LV gauges seem to work fine. That is, the standard, the dual arm, and the little stainless one with a head on each end (which fits in a shirt pocket and is very handy for having two different settings on a single unit).

You all are making me want the TiteMark - - Stop making me spend my money!

The Veritas is garbage and a waste of money and time.

Stan

[Mike Henderson]

David's post, above, got me to thinking about how I hold a marking gauge and whether the shape of the Taylor Toolworks gauge would be a problem. I discovered that I hold the gauge in my fist and draw it along the wood, while simultaneously putting pressure towards the wood. Here's a couple of pictures of me holding the two gauges. First, the Taylor gauge.

Marking-gauges-03.jpg

And then the Tite-Mark.

Marking-gauges-04.jpg

Both were equally comfortable in my hand and both performed essentially the same.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Honestly, even though I'm not especially well off, I'll honour the Tite Mark patent holder by not buying a clone. I'm very uncomfortable with supporting people who run around in gray areas of the law like that.

I'll continue to bumble along with my veritas ones, or my ancient wooden ones, or save my money. Fundamentally, I'm not in such a hurry that I can't just use my veritas ones.

Just to point out, there is no patent on the Tite-Mark - not even a design patent. The only patent that anyone has pointed to is the design patent on the Veritas marking gauge. So there's certainly no "gray area" of the law in the manufacture of the Taylor Toolworks marking gauge.

You may feel that your ethics would not allow you to purchase a product which is similar to another company's, and if so, you have every right to take that approach. The problem with that, however, is that almost every product has items copied from another product. The most obvious example is the Android smartphones and the Apple iPhones. There are many, many more examples, including computers, televisions, automobiles and I don't know what else. Just about every product in the world builds upon earlier products and copies many of their features.

Mike

[Andy Nichols]

Mike:

Thanks for the tip ordered one to test for myself....have a Lee Valley micro adj and don't like it.

So far my favorite wheel cutting gauges are the Tite Mark and the Rob Cosman gauges, really like Cosman's design that won't roll off the bench, plus the big wheel option is great for the standard as well his mortise gauge

Andy -- mos maiorum