Veritas Custom Planes vs Veritas BD planes vs Lie Nielsen

[Hasin Haroon]

Hi folks. I'm looking at fleshing out some of my BD plane collection, and plan on getting a 4.5 and 5/5.5 from either Veritas or Lie Nielsen. Does anyone here have any experience with all three line of planes (Veritas Custom, Veritas regular and LN)? If i'm getting a standard 45 degree frog angle, what is the benefit of a custom plane over a regular veritas BD? Is the plane heavier or built to more exacting standards, maybe to rival LN a bit better? I know that the mouth adjustments are easy, but regular veritas planes have pretty easy frog/mouth adjustments too. I also recognise the veritas has several innovations such as set screws that LN do not.

Performance wise, would you recommend a 4.5 veritas custom, veritas BD or a LN? And what about for a jack plane?

[Hasin Haroon]

I should add that as I am in Canada, getting an equivalent Lie Nielsen shipped here is $100-150 more expensive than veritas.

[Tony Wilkins]

They are both fine tools (though I've used the older Veritas BD and not the custom). I think the fact you are in Canada and the premium on Lie Nielsen I'd say go with the Veritas. Look at the very complete and competent review by Derek Cohen on his website www.inthewoodshop.com to help with your decision if you haven't already.

if you plan to use a jack for rough milling, I'd go vintage Stanley. If you want a modern plane for that task, I'd go with the Veritas 5 1/4.

[Mike Henderson]

I should add that as I am in Canada, getting an equivalent Lie Nielsen shipped here is $100-150 more expensive than veritas.

That would answer the question for me. It's hard to believe that the LN is $100 to $150 better than the LV.

Mike

[Simon MacGowen]

If you have a Lee Valley store in your city, drop by and check out the planes in person. To make sure a knowledgeable handplane person is there to answer your questions, you can call ahead before you go there. The Christmas season was over, they can afford to spend time with you as you try out their planes for sure. The custom planes and the BD planes function the same, giving the identical planing results. It boils down to differences in price, appearance, blade holder and choices in handle, etc.

The Veritas LAJ is great for shooting as compared to other smaller planes you mentioned. If you are not getting it this time, you should get it down the road.

Simon

[Patrick Chase]

Hi folks. I'm looking at fleshing out some of my BD plane collection, and plan on getting a 4.5 and 5/5.5 from either Veritas or Lie Nielsen. Does anyone here have any experience with all three line of planes (Veritas Custom, Veritas regular and LN)? If i'm getting a standard 45 degree frog angle, what is the benefit of a custom plane over a regular veritas BD? Is the plane heavier or built to more exacting standards, maybe to rival LN a bit better? I know that the mouth adjustments are easy, but regular veritas planes have pretty easy frog/mouth adjustments too. I also recognise the veritas has several innovations such as set screws that LN do not.

Performance wise, would you recommend a 4.5 veritas custom, veritas BD or a LN? And what about for a jack plane?

I have L-N 2, 3, 8, and 10-1/4 planes, and all of the Veritas planes you reference (though Veritas doesn't offer the traditional plane in 5/5.5 sizes, unless you count the 5-1/4W).

Other than mouth adjustment (which I'll deal with separately) the main difference between the Veritas traditional and custom planes is the modularity of the frog, tote, and knob. You've already said you're happy with 45 deg, so it seems that frog replaceability is a nonissue. If you're similarly happy with the default Veritas tote and knob then that takes the other two off the table as well. The L-N also offers variable frog angles, though with a smaller range than the Veritas custom planes.

The LVs all use Norris adjusters while the L-Ns use Bailey-style adjusters. Some prefer one, some the other, and some (like me) find that they can use both effectively and don't care very much. For that matter I don't mind going without an adjuster.

I don't see any difference in quality/workmanship between the 3. There are big differences aesthetically, though. I personally love the traditional Veritas planes because I think that they're brilliantly efficient engineering designs, but there are others who can't bear the sight of that admittedly brutish-looking lever cap, the unadorned arch that extends back from the frog to the tote, etc.

Mouth adjustment is an interesting and subjective topic. The Veritas custom planes have movable toes like a block plane, though with limit screws in the plane body. That makes them both easy to use and fairly precise *if* you take the time to dial in the limit screw, though doing that detracts from the ease of adjustment. The mouth adjustment is "pure", meaning that it doesn't couple with any other adjustment.

The traditional Veritas planes are a unique design among modern planes: The frog extends (and supports the blade) all the way through the sole, and adjusts directly fore-aft using a captured nut along a fixed screw. To adjust it you loosen a hold-down screw through the lever-cap/cap-iron/blade assembly with a flat-head screwdriver, and a second hold-down knob behind the frog by hand. You then twist the captured nut by hand to move the frog. It's precise and IMO pretty easy to use, and once again it's a "pure" mouth adjustment with no coupling to anything else.

The L-N planes use Bed Rock frog and mouth adjustment, wherein the frog slides along a slanted bed in the sole. To adjust the mouth you loosen two screws on either side of the back of the frog and twist a third screw in the center to adjust. It's precise, but IMO has two drawbacks relative to the traditional Veritas planes' adjustment: First, I find that the screws are slightly less accessible than their counterparts on the traditional Veritas plane. Second and more importantly, it isn't a "pure" mouth adjustment because the frog slides along a slanted bed. Changing the mouth changes the blade extension and vice-versa, so if you want a very tight mouth then you have to iterate back and forth between the two to get both settings dialed in. Opinions differ as to how big of an issue that is, mostly depending on how tightly people want to control their mouths. If you're relying entirely on the cap iron for tearout control then it's a nonissue since you can just set the mouth in the ballpark you want, adjust the extension, and accept whatever change in the mouth results.

One thing to note is that the mouths of all three can be adjusted with the lever-cap/cap-iron/iron package installed.

In case you can't tell, I think the traditional Veritas planes are a REALLY good value if you don't need modularity or "heirloom" aesthetics. The L-Ns are magnificently made and beautiful tools, but IMO they sacrifice some potential functionality in order to hew closely to their Bed Rock ancestors' pattern. I actually don't think that's a criticism, because L-N are very up-front that "historical validity" is a priority in their designs. Each customer will have different opinions about whether that's a priority in their purchasing. I would personally prefer that L-N invested their immense design talents into a Bailey-pattern plane, which would be equally consistent with their mission of staying true to classic designs, but that ship has sailed as the "Bed Rock bandwagon" has become an unstoppable force in the market :-).

[Tony Wilkins]

I have L-N 2, 3, and 8 planes, and all of the Veritas planes you reference (though Veritas doesn't offer the traditional plane in 5/5.5 sizes, unless you count the 5-1/4W).

Other than mouth adjustment (which I'll deal with separately) the main difference between the Veritas traditional and custom planes is the modularity of the frog, tote, and knob. You've already said you're happy with 45 deg, so it seems that frog replaceability is a nonissue. If you're similarly happy with the default Veritas tote and frog then that takes the other two off the table as well. The L-N also offers variable frog angles, though with a smaller range than the Veritas custom planes.

The LVs all use Norris adjusters while the L-Ns use Bailey-style adjusters. Some prefer one, some the other, and some (like me) find that they can use both effectively and don't care very much. For that matter I don't mind going without an adjuster.

I don't see any difference in quality/workmanship between the 3. There are big differences aesthetically, though. I personally love the traditional Veritas planes because I think that they're brilliantly efficient engineering designs, but there are others who can't bear the sight of that admittedly brutish-looking lever cap, the unadorned arch that extends back from the frog to the tote, etc.

Mouth adjustment is an interesting and subjective topic. The Veritas custom planes have movable toes like a block plane, though with limit screws in the plane body. That makes them both easy to use and fairly precise *if* you take the time to dial in the limit screw, though doing that detracts from the ease of adjustment. The mouth adjustment is "pure", meaning that it doesn't couple with any other adjustment.

The traditional Veritas planes are a unique design among modern planes: The frog extends (and supports the blade) all the way through the sole, and adjusts directly fore-aft using a captured nut along a fixed screw. To adjust it you loosen a hold-down screw through the lever-cap/cap-iron/blade assembly with a flat-head screwdriver, and a second hold-down knob behind the frog by hand. You then twist the captured nut by hand to move the frog. It's precise and IMO pretty easy to use, and once again it's a "pure" mouth adjustment with no coupling to anything else.

The L-N planes use Bed Rock frog and mouth adjustment, wherein the frog slides along a slanted bed in the sole. To adjust the mouth you loosen two screws on either side of the back of the frog and twist a knob in the center to adjust. It's precise, but IMO has two drawbacks relative to the traditional Veritas planes' adjustment: First, I find that the screws are slightly less accessible than their counterparts on the traditional Veritas plane. Second and more importantly, it isn't a "pure" mouth adjustment because the frog slides along a slanted bed. Changing the mouth changes the blade extension and vice-versa, so if you want a very tight mouth then you have to iterate back and forth between the two to get both settings dialed in. Opinions differ as to how big of an issue that is, mostly depending on how tightly people want to control their mouths. If you're relying entirely on the cap iron for tearout control then it's a nonissue since you can just set the mouth in the ballpark you want, adjust the extension, and accept whatever change in the mouth results.

One thing to note is that the mouths of all three can be adjusted with the lever-cap/cap-iron/iron package installed.

In case you can't tell, I think the traditional Veritas planes are a REALLY good value if you don't need modularity or "heirloom" aesthetics. The L-Ns are magnificently made and beautiful tools, but IMO they sacrifice some potential functionality in order to hew closely to their Bed Rock ancestors' pattern. I actually don't think that's a criticism, because L-N are very up-front that "historical validity" is a priority in their designs. Each customer will have different opinions about whether that's a priority in their purchasing. I would personally prefer that L-N invested their immense design talents into a Bailey-pattern plane, which would be equally consistent with their mission of staying true to classic designs, but that ship has sailed as the "Bed Rock bandwagon" has become an unstoppable force in the market :-).

Good point Patrick about the adjusters. I can use both Bailey and Norris but have a definite preference to the Bailey. The same goes for the mouth adjustment in the original Veritas BD versus the LN with me preferring the LN slightly- though you are correct about the angled bed.

[Hasin Haroon]

Thanks for the splendid and thought out response, detailing all the main features and pros and cons of both Patrick. Highly appreciated.

[Hasin Haroon]

Thanks everyone. I think I've settled on a course of action based on your responses and some thought. I'll get the veritas custom 5.5, with a 45 degree frog, and will get a 4.5 custom with a 55 degree frog later. This should cover my requirements and give me the option of changing frog angles on both the 4.5 and 5.5. It sounds like the Veritas custom planes and the LNs are both heirloom quality tools.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Hasin

A couple of questions for you:

Firstly, what makes you seek out the #4 1/2 and #5 1/2 sizes (as opposed to the #4 and #5 sizes)? Is there a reason for choosing the wider planes?

Secondly, do you have experience and/or interest in using a chipbreaker to control tearout? Allied to this is, do you work wood that is tearout prone?

Both Veritas and the LN build superior planes. By this I mean that the fit and finish is second to none, and the materials used are the best in the business. The Custom Veritas planes follow a different design path from the LN bench planes. Ultimately both will get you there, however some will prefer one over the other in regard to their ergonomics and features.

I have not used the earlier model of the Veritas bench planes, but have considerable experience with the Custom planes (I have the #4 and #7). I also use a LN #3 and #4 1/2 along with similar Stanleys.

You can find an in-depth discussion of the Custom planes and their set up here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...omPlanes1.html

There are advantages and disadvantages to the half-sizes, and there are also differences in chipbreaker set up between the two makers. Whether I need to go into this is up to your reply to my earlier questions.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Hasin Haroon]

Hi Derek, thank you for your response. I like the 4.5 size for smoothing based on my experience with my bailey 4.5 and 4 smoothers, and my Veritas BU smoother. The added heft and registration area works well for me. I know some find them too heavy for prolonged use, but I given my day job I don't get to use them for too many hours at a stretch outside of weekends.

Admittedly the desire for a 5.5 is based on 'filling out' the collection, as its a size I do not currently own. I will use the 5.5 for lighter jack plane use and occasionally for smoothing.

So far I have only used my BD planes with a chip breaker, and only recently have I realised that one can use a BD plane without a chipbreaker and get decent results. But I mostly stick to using the chip breaker as that's how I learnt. I do often use wood that tends to tearout, such as curly and figured maple.

I am quite familiar with the bailey style planes and adjustments, and am also familiar with the Veritas planes and adjustments. I appreciate the set screws and frog/mouth adjustments on the veritas but wish the norris adjusters would allow for better 'on-the-fly' adjustments.

I have read your fantastic review on the custom planes, and therefore feel more familiar to the customs but at the same time was wondering about the difference in performance, use and build quality between the custom planes, the regular Veritas and the LN.

Looking forward to reading your opinion on what I've written so far, and also on my plan of getting a 4.5 & 5.5 with 55 degree and 45 degree frogs respectively for interchangeability.

[Patrick Chase]

Down the rathole we go :-)

Admittedly the desire for a 5.5 is based on 'filling out' the collection, as its a size I do not currently own. I will use the 5.5 for lighter jack plane use and occasionally for smoothing.

I love my 5-1/2, but I wouldn't describe it as suitable for "lighter jack plane use". The Jack is originally a roughing plane, and for that you arguably want a narrower blade with camber. IMO the 5 is better suited for that sort of work (or LV's 5-1/4W - I like that long toe for things like de-cupping wider boards as it has less tendency to "follow the curve" at the start of each cut).

I find myself using the 5-1/2 more for jointing smaller work and sometimes as a "super smoother" (but only when I don't need/want to follow the surface).

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Hasin

It's good to hear that you are using the chipbreaker, rather than relying on the frog angle, to control tearout. The half size planes are wide and any increase in width comes with the penalty of added resistance when pushing the planes. I would only get the 45 degree frogs for both, and not go any higher. There is actually no benefit anyway. For illustration, my #7 has a 40 degree frog, and this does not compromise it at all on interlocked face grain (since the chipbreaker is used). The added benefit of the low angle frog is that I can shoot end grain more easily. My #3 Custom has a 42 degree frog.

Whether LN or Veritas, the chipbreaker needs to be modified. The factory leading edge of 30 degrees is too low, and you must add a secondary bevel of 50 degrees.



Above are the tools I use to adjust the Custom planes. The little jewellers hammer is a few oz only. It is used with all Bailey planes as well. This is for making fine lateral adjustments. I find the lateral adjuster on all these planes is good enough to get one into the ball park, but fine tuning is often needed with a hammer.

The hex headed screwdriver is essential kit for the Custom planes. This makes adjusting the chipbreaker much easier. Of the Bailey type vs the Custom type, I find the Custom much easier to set close to the blade as (1) the set screws are on the side facing the mating of chipbreaker with the rear of the blade, making it easier to actually observe when the gap narrows. (2) the double screws of the Custom planes are a pain in the wotsit until you realise that only the dome head needs to be used - may this slip tight and adjust the chipbreaker, then tighten when in position. The hex screwdriver makes this easier. Once this is complete, only then tighten the recessed screw - if you try and tighten the recessed screw earlier, it will move the chipbreaker from its position. See my article for removing/replacing the chipbreaker.

The Custom planes come with the option of PM-V11 steel, and this is a must-buy. It is close to O1 in grain fineness, unlike the A2 of LN. I have replaced the blades in my LNs with PM.

Once set up, both planes do a terrific job. What I like about the Custom planes, outside of the opportunity to tune the ergonomics via choice of handles and knobs, is the mouth. This makes it easy to slide open to expel shavings.

Personally, I have no use for a #5 1/2. This was actually the first hand plane I purchased (at a flea market), about 25 years ago. It was used for everything. But today it does not serve a purpose - too long to be a smoother, too short to be a jointer, too wide to joint narrow edges, and too ungainly to use as a shooting plane. I prefer planes to do specific tasks. I do not "fill gaps". If the money was mine to spend, I'd be looking at something else. Others, however, enjoy the #5 1/2 as a sort of panel plane, that is, a long smoother that is used on surfaces that have been machined flat. David Charlesworth calls his a super smoother.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Hachet]

Thanks everyone. I think I've settled on a course of action based on your responses and some thought. I'll get the veritas custom 5.5, with a 45 degree frog, and will get a 4.5 custom with a 55 degree frog later. This should cover my requirements and give me the option of changing frog angles on both the 4.5 and 5.5. It sounds like the Veritas custom planes and the LNs are both heirloom quality tools.

This seems like an extremely rational plan. I am wanting to add a 4 1/2 and a 5 1/2 to my collection as well.

[Hasin Haroon]

I suppose I could have explained myself better. I meant I wouldn't be using it to hog too much material, I'd be using it for projects where I wouldn't need to use a smoother for the final finish, or for larger projects as a smoother at times.