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Thread: Shop Tour #3: The Martin T-17 Tablesaw.

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Steffey
    Hey Dev why is your saw listed today on woodweb for sale by some guy named Arthur?
    Psst, Ralph -- it's Arnold and it's Dev's given name...
    Bill Simmeth
    Delaplane VA

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Simmeth
    Psst, Ralph -- it's Arnold and it's Dev's given name...
    Yah, and while your at it make sure to slur the pronounciation and draw it out a bit. Respell California as Kali-fornie. Then get me a shoe box full of hypos with horse steriods. You know, breakfest of champions.
    Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.

  3. #18
    So Dev, now that the T-17 is up for sale, does that mean that you got the T-73?

    Gary

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Sutherland
    So Dev, now that the T-17 is up for sale, does that mean that you got the T-73?

    Gary
    Well, there are not many saws better than a late model, wonderful T-17.
    Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dev Emch
    Yah, and while your at it make sure to slur the pronounciation and draw it out a bit. Respell California as Kali-fornie. Then get me a shoe box full of hypos with horse steriods. You know, breakfest of champions.
    LOL! I guess next you'll be telling us "I'll be baaahk!"
    Bill Simmeth
    Delaplane VA

  6. #21
    Dev..

    I've always thought my dream cabinet saw would be an 88. I've seen both the 88 and a T-17, but neither were powered up to play with. Either saw is available locally, but I don't know about the condition.

    Also, the Monotrol is of interest. Wow, looks great. Not many of those around tho. Someone told me that the drawback to a Monotrol is that Moak used nylon for guides or ? on the trunnions and it's a pain to replace. Do you know anything about this?

    Not that I'm ready to buy one right now, but which would you choose? Or are we talking apples and bananas here?

    Gary

  7. #22
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    Apples and bananas. I have heard some bad things about this but I can tell you from my experience its not true. The original oliver 88 had a similar system. The martin is extremely well engineered and machined. So I would not listen to anyone bad mouthing this equipment. Remind again who is Martin?

    It is true that asian makers in an attempt to cut machine accuracy did use plastic in their ways for metalworking machines. Most asian milling machines are not nearly as accurate as say a bridgeport. But this plastic material is not nylon. Its called turcite. And its often used to rebuild older machines here as well. Its extremely hard and needs to be scraped in just as you would cast iron. And its this process, done all the time in metalworking machine rebuilding, that may have thrown someone for a loop and caused them spread rumors.

    Personally, I would only use turcite as a last resort and then only to line the interior of say a carriage saddle. You do not wish to use it as a surface for a way. And a trunion can be classified as a curvilinear way.

    Quite a few of us have seen Moaks and my buddy Steve has owned several Moaks. By and large, we do not really care for them. They are good machines but Moak was more into cost engineering than other marks and a careful eye will find that. A Martin T-17 or a Tanny U or XJ will smoke a Moak three ways to Sunday. Personally, I avoid Moaks.

    Now the problem with any used machine is that if it has been roughly handled, things may be broken. Then you see cracked castings, missing parts, bent main shafts and gearing missing substantial numbers of teeth. If the previous owner had a single digit IQ and did not care, then the machine may have subtantial damage and your special deal may turn out to be a nightmare. You get what you pay for.
    Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.

  8. #23
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    hi guys
    just a couple of thoughs on old iron.

    Design is everything, but condition is also everything. One of the problems that you end up with is a really good designed piece of equipment, but one that has problems. Interesting point here is with my oliver 260D I recently sold. After ripping it all apart and putting it back together I could see the good points and areas in the design that I would have done differently. In addition that oliver had a repair to the casting which was done pretty decently, but I wondered about. In the process of selling it, I talked with several ( 5-6) oliver owners who all said that every recent up for sale 260 had condition issues. The really interesting thing was that at least 2 of them knew of saws with the exact same repair. So what does all that tell you? there are some design issues and possible some mfg issues that contribute to the over all machine.

    Bill S. from what I understand has a perfect 260. But that is more the exception than the rule. What about the tannewitz TS. I will be looking at a very rare dual arbor one this monday. Will have more to discuss on monday night. The problem with the tannewitz equipment ( bill also happens to have a mint Tannewitz BS ) is that since they were so popular with the NC furniture industry, when they finally come up for sale they are wooped and it will take a lot to get them back into any type of shape.

    I won't go into it here, but another saw that was mentioned here also has a known design flaw that does rear its head now and then. In general the machine is great, but it does have the potential for catistrophic failure because of this.

    So in the end you might have to buy a machine that is not the very best design, but the very best condition of the old iron that one can now find, or wait for 10 years till they come up.

    lou

  9. #24
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    Lou, you are correct, condition is everything. Even the very best engineered machine is worthless if it was not properly maintained over the years.

    I was very fortunate to get the machines I did. They were originally bought new by Uncle Sam and placed into use in a one-man government-sponsored cabinet shop for 30 years. They lived in the cabinet shop in the basement of the U.S. Geological Society's headquarters in suburban DC. They made countless map cabinets and mineral sample storage shelves. They also made the wooden base for the Moon Rock display at the Smithsonian and were also pressed into service for a few commissioned pieces for the White House and US Capital. A very storied history and not a very rough life! In all those years, (until I got to them) they only moved once when the USGS moved its headquarters from one side of DC to the other. However, professional riggers were employed (at I am sure great expense to all of us taxpayers) and I am sure they rode in great style!

    Spending money on maintenance was no problem there. I had the pleasure of meeting the cabinetmaker (who had retired by then) as I was dismantling the shop and he was a delight. From him I got a good overview of the machines' histories and maintenance practices. He was pleased to see the machines go to a "good home" and I was pleased to find that they had been entrusted to a man who cared for them.

    They are in great shape, tho I think the term "mint" is a bit generous. However, what "issues" they have/had are minor in comparison to some things I have seen (and what you found in your Oliver). Point in fact, I have a wonderful old Tannewitz J250 from the late 20s that came from a furniture factory -- and shows it! It needs some fairly major work to put it back into practical use. In contrast to the USGS machines, it lived a VERY hard life.

    The moral of the story(ies) is: Yes, study the inherent design of the machine you are searching for or have found, but don't scrimp on the due diligence of carefully examining the condition of the specific machine you are acquiring. Learning the complete history of how the machine was used and by whom helps immensely.
    Bill Simmeth
    Delaplane VA

  10. #25
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    Lou,
    I come from West Michigan originally, and Tannewitz saws were used extensively in the furniture factories there. I worked in one for several years, and remember that we had four of them of varying ages, so all the guys were very familiar with them. Most factories I knew about tended to put the older beat-up ones in production, and keep the nice newer ones in the pattern shop, where they saw relatively light use. Many of these businesses went down in the eighties, and liquidated their inventory of used equipment to local dealers and other buyers. I believe there is still a large concentration of these machines in West Michigan and surrounding areas because they tend to stay where they were originally manufactured. If you can find one from a pattern shop within a factory, it might be a real gem. The other thing about pattern shops is that the best craftsmen tended to work in them because the projects were more difficult than in general production, and these craftsmen by nature, take better care of the tools. Oliver, Tannewitz, Porter and several other manufacturers were based in West michigan, so this area promises to be a potential treasure trove for the vintage iron enthusiast.

  11. #26
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    Chris, you make a good point distinguishing between the production floor and the pattern shop (or prototype shop as some factories called it). I have attended several auctions of furniture factories down in North Carolina and SW Virginia. You can immediately tell the difference in the condition of the machines "in the shop" versus "on the floor".

    Unfortunately, not every factory had such a shop. Many of the larger volume manufacturers (Lane, Ethan Allen, Broyhill, Vaughn, etc) had a central shop that fed fixtures and jigs to outlying plants. Anyway, as I posited in my earlier post, knowing the machine's history - how it was used and by whom - is valuable info when considering a vintage machine.
    Bill Simmeth
    Delaplane VA

  12. Hey Dav do you still have the Martin T 17 I have some questions about that saw .

    Thanks Stephan
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 06-15-2013 at 9:39 PM.

  13. #28
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    Stephan,

    Dav hasn't logged on since August 5, 2008. I doubt you will get a reply.
    Ken

    So much to learn, so little time.....

  14. I know it’s been 13 years or so, but I have been trying to find info on the T17. I just picked one up and I’m getting ready to go through it. I don’t know if you’re still on the forum. If you are, is there a way I can get the pics you posted of the saw. They don’t show up in the thread. I’m assuming it might be because of the age of the thread. It would be nice to have as a reference. Also would enjoy talking with someone who actually has one of these.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fitzgerald View Post
    Stephan,

    Dav hasn't logged on since August 5, 2008. I doubt you will get a reply.

    I suspect the same applies to the "new" Stephan as well.

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