Just a question about Bench Dog planes.

[Eric Danstrom]

Is there an indication that it has always been the same manufacture?

Could there be various factories bidding on making the planes?

jtk

They've only been available for a ~year...I suppose it could be a couple factories but when one factory's line up matches the Rockler offerings and the other doesn't it seems unlikely. Esp when considering the volumes. Does it matter that the planes arent made by Groz? I read Groz are excretable and no one wants that.

[Tony Zaffuto]

First, I do not own a Bench Dog plane-I got plenty of other vintage and new in my accumulation. I was at a
Pittsburgh area Rockler and had a chance to handle a couple (store manager is a handtool guy) some months ago. I choose not to take the plane to wood but to give them (smoother and block) a good look. Using the edge of the sole and side as a straight edge against the sole of another, the sole was straight. Plane well finished. Block well finished. Controls worked smoothly on both.

There is nothing written in stone that only LN or LV can make top notch modern planes. These aren't bad at all, and a bit cheaper. There is also nothing written in stone that a rank amateur will find a fully workable vintage or be able to make one work. For a person in the Pittsburgh area, a Bench Dog plane would be a good choice, provided Vince, the manager, was around to give you a few pointers. Now will I purchase one? I doubt it, and I would not ask for one for a gift, BUT, if given one as a gift, it would definitely see use and I doubt I would curse it. They ain't bad!

[Eric Danstrom]

Since the Chinese versions sold at Woodcraft now cost the same as or very near the price of LN and Veritas the Indian knock offs are the next alternative. I bet WC is disappointed choosing a Chinese supplier, nobody wants a knockoff when you can get the real McCoy for the same price. Score one for Rockler in the cheap knockoff battle. Kinda sad both turned their backs on North American companies to become middle-men for off shore junk.

[Joe Tilson]

I sent an email to Bench Dog asking them to tell who their manufacturer is.
Let's see if they ever answer.

[Frederick Skelly]

Kinda sad both turned their backs on North American companies to become middle-men for off shore junk.

Agree it's sad they dont sell North American product. But the WC planes are not actually "junk". I have 2 and the quality is good. I cant speak to the Rockler product.

[Mike Brady]

In checking the Garrett Wade website, I found it interesting that this company lists Lie-Nielsen products but says they are currently unavailable. We can speculate about the reaons for this, but I know Thomas once worked for Garrett Wade, and got into his current business through opportunities developed there.

[J. Greg Jones]

Since the Chinese versions sold at Woodcraft now cost the same as or very near the price of LN and Veritas the Indian knock offs are the next alternative. I bet WC is disappointed choosing a Chinese supplier, nobody wants a knockoff when you can get the real McCoy for the same price. Score one for Rockler in the cheap knockoff battle. Kinda sad both turned their backs on North American companies to become middle-men for off shore junk.

Can’t speak for Rockler, but Woodcraft didn’t have much of a choice after they broke their contract with LN and LN subsequently pulled it.

[Frederick Skelly]

Can’t speak for Rockler, but Woodcraft didn’t have much of a choice after they broke their contract with LN and LN subsequently pulled it.

LInk to the actual story

[J. Greg Jones]

Which all happened after Woodcraft had a nation-wide sale, 20% off all Lie-Nielsen products which went counter to their agreement with Lie-Nielsen.

[Eric Danstrom]

The Woodcraft BU 62 is now listed at the same price as the LN 62. The $250 WC BU is slightly better than the $100 Stanley version but in no way compares to its North American competitors. I looked at the WC chinese chisels, again, very poor quality. The handles don't line up with the blades on the stock at my local WC. Combine that with surly clerks and I wonder just what it is I'm supposed to support....

[Frederick Skelly]

The Woodcraft BU 62 is now listed at the same price as the LN 62. The $250 WC BU is slightly better than the $100 Stanley version but in no way compares to its North American competitors. I looked at the WC chinese chisels, again, very poor quality. The handles don't line up with the blades on the stock at my local WC. Combine that with surly clerks and I wonder just what it is I'm supposed to support....

At the time I bought my 2 WC planes, they were far lower in price than LN. (My #3 was $100.) The WC Version 3 planes work very well. I agree I would buy LV or LN if they were "closer". It would be silly to do otherwise, wouldn't it? I have no experience with the WC chisels.

Edit: I compared some prices and Wow has WC gone up:
* WC 62 vs the LN are within $6 of each other? That is insane. Buy LN.
* WC #3 is $189 vs $325 for the LN. I'd go see what LV had and buy that.
* WC 4 1/2 is $219 vs $325 for the LN. Id buy the LV (actually, I did) or the LN.

[Frederick Skelly]

Which all happened after Woodcraft had a nation-wide sale, 20% off all Lie-Nielsen products which went counter to their agreement with Lie-Nielsen.

I've heard that said but I've never been able to find much of anything on it. (No newspaper or trade magazine sort of info.) And I wasnt "into` hand tools at the time so I don't have any firsthand knowledge of that WC sale. Do you know anything more on all that Greg?

[Stewie Simpson]

At the time I bought my 2 WC planes, they were far lower in price than LN. (My #3 was $100.) The WC Version 3 planes work very well. I agree I would buy LV or LN if they were "closer". It would be silly to do otherwise, wouldn't it? I have no experience with the WC chisels.

Edit: I compared some prices and Wow has WC gone up:
* WC 62 vs the LN are within $6 of each other? That is insane. Buy LN.
* WC #3 is $189 vs $325 for the LN. I'd go see what LV had and buy that.
* WC 4 1/2 is $219 vs $325 for the LN. Id buy the LV (actually, I did) or the LN.

Fred; there is a valid explanation for the price increase on WC tools;

But that is not how tariffs work. China’s government and companies in China do not pay U.S. tariffs directly. Tariffs are a tax on imported products and are paid by U.S.-registered firms to U.S. customs when goods enter the United States.

[J. Greg Jones]

Yes, I have first-hand information on some of the details and I used to have a connection with a Woodcraft franchise owner, and there was also some internet speculation that may/may not be accurate, so here is the story as I recall it. LN had set up a handful of Woodcraft franchises as dealers before they ever had a national contract with Woodcraft corporate. LN did not object to these dealers offering a discount at special events, such as a LN open house, but otherwise all LN products were to be sold at MSRP. Later LN and Woodcraft corporate entered into a national agreement and what I was told was that part of the agreement stated that all LN products would be sold at MSRP.

Now moving to September of 2009, the Woodcraft sale event unfolded and there are conflicting stories on how it happened. One version had it that a Woodcraft location (I believe in Texas) that was one of the original group of LN dealers had requested promo materials from corporate for a local event they were having, and LN products were at 20% off. Someone at corporate screwed up and created flyers for all Woodcraft locations, which violated the contract. Personally, I find that difficult to believe, I think corporate knew what they were doing all along.

Either way, the 20% off sale was extremely successful and LN was flooded with orders that literally took months to fill. This created the demand issue mentioned in the article you linked to. As I write this I am looking at a hard copy receipt I have for the LN LAJ that I purchased during the sale on 09/24/09. The LAJ sold for $245 back then, same as today, and shipping was $13.99 for a total of $258.99. There was no Woodcraft corporate presence in Kentucky at the time, so no Kentucky sales tax. At the bottom of the invoice it says “Coupon Apld $62.99 ($49 for 20% off + $13.99 free shipping) for a net total on the plane of $196.00. Now here is an interesting point about the invoice, the line item gives an item number of 07026 and the description says “Low Angle Jack Plane”. No mention of Lie-Nielsen at all, which makes me wonder if that was intentional for the sale?

Now there was one additional rumor around the same time that LN and Woodcraft had been working together to design the Woodriver line of planes that would sell for much less than they do today, giving Woodcraft that option while not selling an item that would give much competition to the LN line. At some point that collaboration ended, and I have no info on what the timing and cause of it was. Did the sale cause the collaboration to end, did the collaboration end resulting in Woodcraft retaliating with the sale, or something else entirely?

The first version of the Woodriver planes were cheaper, lower quality, and were a direct knock-off of LN, even to the point that, IIRC, they had the same casting marks as the LN. Quality wise, it was so poor that they soon released a version 2 which still had problems. Only after Rob Cosman was contracted to consult with Woodcraft on the version 3 that is sold today, did they make a quality Woodriver plane (so I am told, I’ve never used one myself).

[Eric Danstrom]

Fred; there is a valid explanation for the price increase on WC tools;

I don't pay tariffs on Chinese products, I don't buy Chinese products. That was easy. Of course anyone from a heavily regulated Western European economic system explaining how "tariffs are taxes" is rich with irony. Anyone care to explain VAT while we're on the subject of taxes.....