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Thread: Engraving Stainless Steel on Epilog Fusion M2 dual power

  1. #1

    Engraving Stainless Steel on Epilog Fusion M2 dual power

    I searched all over the forum and I can't find the exact answer I am looking for.


    • I work at a cemetery and engrave 304 stainless steel plates (called lot blocks) that are 5"x3". For the past 5 yrs I had been engraving them on the Epilog Legend 36EXT 75 watt CO2 using Cermark.
    • We just got a new engraver, Epilog Fusion M2 40 dual power 75W CO2 / 50W Fiber.


    Although the Cermark on the Legend gave good dark marks, it was costly as we have to do thousands a month and over the yrs, the cermark began to fade away beating in the Cali Sun. Weather the Cermark wasn't mixed correctly or its just wear from the sun, either way, we are now using the new Fusion.

    So the good thing is that I etch using the fiber and actually remove some of the SS on the lot block giving it some depth. However It is very light. Is there anyway to make it almost black like cermark?


    • Right now I am using the manufacturer's settings of: 40S/100P/3F
    • For the Focus settings it says to use -0.8 - +0.10. I have NO idea what that means. I thought I just need to use the 3" focus tool and that was it.



    • I also run another pass using vector cut with the setting of: 50S/100P/20F

    I like the vector cut because it gives it a good deep outline for the numbers and lines I am engraving into the SS that I can feel.

    Does anyone know a good setting to use?

    I am not use to using Frequency settings for Raster. I am used to the CO2 engraver that does have Frequency for Raster and only Speed and Power.

    In the Fusion I can load 72 lot blocks and do them all at once while I'm out of the office doing other tasks. I am trying to keep it under 2hrs if possible to complete that many because as I mentioned I have to do thousands in a month.

    I attached some photos. Some do look dark but it brush right off so I think i got my settings off. I want to get as deep an etch as well as dark as possible as time permits.

    Any knowledge is much appreciated.


    IMG_20161105_151950.jpgIMG_20161105_190911.jpgIMG_20161105_190924.jpgIMG_20161105_190935.jpgIMG_20161105_190953.jpgIMG_20161105_191003.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    I'm not sure what to tell you about your focus numbers, I'm sure they're mm numbers, but minus .8mm to +.1mm sounds more like "normal focus range" than anything else. HOWEVER, to get a good black mark, at least with my machine, you need to be out focus, probably more than might seem reasonable-- this is because a good focused beam is going to remove metal, and what you need is a slightly fatter beam that will apply more heat than cut. You might also try lower power and speed settings. But--chances are if you find that dark mark you're looking for, it won't be very deep. Not that that's a bad thing

    My opinions (and some of my customers') on Cermark-- I've been using it going on 15 years, and when buying it by the 500gm bottle, the price per use is only pennies. So far, I've found the aggravation and time spent that comes with trying to find the magic settings to get that good black mark aren't worth the savings of not using Cermark. And last week a customer dropped off a bunch of stainless parts (some of them are pictured in another post)-- I've always used Cermark on them, but the previous order I used the fiber, and asked them to let me know how they liked it... I thought they looked good, and the mark for sure would be more permanent. But when the last parts were dropped off, I got told matter of factly, "do these the old way, they don't like the last ones as well". Seems I'll always be buying Cermark

    As for your Cermark fading in the sun-- I'm more inclined to think it's just like the water deposits that build up on glass shower doors-- calcium deposits from lawn watering, and/or from whatever guck rain finds in the sky on its way down. - Try some CLR or Lime Away on them. Work fast, as some acids (muriatic for example in strong mixes) can darken stainless.


    Good luck!
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  3. #3
    Thanks Kev, that helps. I'll the try the out of focus thing. From what I can tell seems most darker marks on fiber tends to wipe way like it's just burnt residue metal. But with cermark at $250 a 500g bottle we spend thousands of dollars on it and wash most of it away. I guess with fiber will be just trial and error for a bit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kev Williams View Post
    I'm not sure what to tell you about your focus numbers, I'm sure they're mm numbers, but minus .8mm to +.1mm sounds more like "normal focus range" than anything else. HOWEVER, to get a good black mark, at least with my machine, you need to be out focus, probably more than might seem reasonable-- this is because a good focused beam is going to remove metal, and what you need is a slightly fatter beam that will apply more heat than cut. You might also try lower power and speed settings. But--chances are if you find that dark mark you're looking for, it won't be very deep. Not that that's a bad thing

    My opinions (and some of my customers') on Cermark-- I've been using it going on 15 years, and when buying it by the 500gm bottle, the price per use is only pennies. So far, I've found the aggravation and time spent that comes with trying to find the magic settings to get that good black mark aren't worth the savings of not using Cermark. And last week a customer dropped off a bunch of stainless parts (some of them are pictured in another post)-- I've always used Cermark on them, but the previous order I used the fiber, and asked them to let me know how they liked it... I thought they looked good, and the mark for sure would be more permanent. But when the last parts were dropped off, I got told matter of factly, "do these the old way, they don't like the last ones as well". Seems I'll always be buying Cermark

    As for your Cermark fading in the sun-- I'm more inclined to think it's just like the water deposits that build up on glass shower doors-- calcium deposits from lawn watering, and/or from whatever guck rain finds in the sky on its way down. - Try some CLR or Lime Away on them. Work fast, as some acids (muriatic for example in strong mixes) can darken stainless.


    Good luck!
    Epilog Fusion M2 40 75W CO2 / 50W Fiber
    Epilog Legend 36EXT 75W CO2

  4. #4
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    Tyler, not to be too critical,but your company spent what,$40,000 on a machine without getting epilog to test the laser on the ONE thing that it would be used to produce? Why didn't you send their application lab a handful of the plates and get them to test and get the settings for this? And approve of the blackness and depth prior to purchase?
    I would understand if you processed a lot different materials,but in this case it is a one trick pony. It isnt performing as you guys expected it to. Your payment was to be the elimination of cermark and that might not happen. Go call epilog and get some help from them. Especially since you don't understand settings.

    Make them earn their money too!
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Lifer View Post
    Tyler, not to be too critical,but your company spent what,$40,000 on a machine...
    $40,000 - lol boy are you in dream land. That might not even be half the price of this machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Lifer View Post
    ...Go call Epilog and get some help from them. Especially since you don't understand settings....
    As an owner of an M2 Dual... good luck with this too. I have spent 16 months trial & error to get a partial list of settings. Some materials will have multiple settings depending on the exact specification of the material. Stainless Steel for example, I have 3 settings. Unlike CO2, Fiber isn't a 1 setting fits all. Epilog tries, but the settings they offer are an extremely crude starting point.
    Tim
    There are Big Brain people & Small Brain people. I'm one of the Big Brains - with a lot of empty space.- me
    50W Fiber - Raycus/MaxPhotonics - It's a metal eating beast!
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Phong View Post
    I searched all over the forum and I can't find the exact answer I am looking for.
    ...
    Does anyone know a good setting to use?

    I am not use to using Frequency settings for Raster. I am used to the CO2 engraver that does have Frequency for Raster and only Speed and Power.

    In the Fusion I can load 72 lot blocks and do them all at once while I'm out of the office doing other tasks. I am trying to keep it under 2hrs if possible to complete that many because as I mentioned I have to do thousands in a month.

    I attached some photos. Some do look dark but it brush right off so I think i got my settings off. I want to get as deep an etch as well as dark as possible as time permits.
    I focus .9 closer than focus. For a good clean Black marking my 30watt M2 Dual Fiber requires 2 passes - on most SS, Fiber isn't an exact science. Note - Time wise this isn't a very efficient way to mark metal. I switched back to Cermark. Which Cermark where you using? I no longer touch LMM-6000. Not a good product. LMM-6038 gives me a much cleaner mark and it doesn't seem to matter how smooth or thick it's applied. I understand the company is now pushing LMM14, but I have not yet tried it.
    Tim
    There are Big Brain people & Small Brain people. I'm one of the Big Brains - with a lot of empty space.- me
    50W Fiber - Raycus/MaxPhotonics - It's a metal eating beast!
    Epilog Fusion M2 50/30 Co2/Fiber - 2015
    Epilog Mini 24 – 35watt - 2006 (Original Tube)
    Ricoh SG3110DN
    - Liberty Laser LLC

  7. #7
    No, no, John you are right on the ball there to be critical. I wanted to run full tests on different brand engravers first. The purchase manager for the company in all his wisdom decided to convince our company VP to go with this one even though he has never seen the engraver or tested it in person. Neither myself or the other engraving operator nor the dept in charge (cemetery development) were told till after it was said and done. I guess when someone makes a $60,000 impluse buy, others have to make it somehow work. The good thing is I also engrave urns and signs so it is a multi use machine. But mainly the lot blocks 90% of the time. I guess if the fiber on SS fails, I can revert back to Cermark since it's dual power.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Lifer View Post
    Tyler, not to be too critical,but your company spent what,$40,000 on a machine without getting epilog to test the laser on the ONE thing that it would be used to produce? Why didn't you send their application lab a handful of the plates and get them to test and get the settings for this? And approve of the blackness and depth prior to purchase?
    I would understand if you processed a lot different materials,but in this case it is a one trick pony. It isnt performing as you guys expected it to. Your payment was to be the elimination of cermark and that might not happen. Go call epilog and get some help from them. Especially since you don't understand settings.

    Make them earn their money too!
    Epilog Fusion M2 40 75W CO2 / 50W Fiber
    Epilog Legend 36EXT 75W CO2

  8. #8
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    If ever there was an example of someone buying the wrong machine for a job this is it! a 50 watt gavlo with an X Y table would have those done at a rate of about 40 seconds each, if that !! It looks like you need to slow the machine down , I would say 100mm/second ! This is where the slowness of the gantry style laser really makes it the wrong choice ! Be great if you where doing big plates with no time constraints

  9. #9
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    As an example this video is done at double speed but even so it's still quick and black
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2Ph21-O5C8&sns=em

  10. #10
    Yeah thats the cermark we use 6000. I figured it would be quite a bit of trial and error. Just came here to see if anyone had any experience with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bateson View Post
    I focus .9 closer than focus. For a good clean Black marking my 30watt M2 Dual Fiber requires 2 passes - on most SS, Fiber isn't an exact science. Note - Time wise this isn't a very efficient way to mark metal. I switched back to Cermark. Which Cermark where you using? I no longer touch LMM-6000. Not a good product. LMM-6038 gives me a much cleaner mark and it doesn't seem to matter how smooth or thick it's applied. I understand the company is now pushing LMM14, but I have not yet tried it.
    Epilog Fusion M2 40 75W CO2 / 50W Fiber
    Epilog Legend 36EXT 75W CO2

  11. #11
    Yeh I recommended a Galvo but it was ignored because the one in their price range could only do one or two pieces at a time. That wouldnt be an issue if we had an operator full time sitting there switching out the plates. I'm a lead in another part of the cemetery and the full time operator is out of the office doing other things while the engraver runs. So in short, not as organized as you might think for a corporation..or depending on how you look at it, exactly how a corporation runs.

    Either way, we're stuck with this machine. I'm just trying to help them out and figure the best marking and time frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by matthew knott View Post
    If ever there was an example of someone buying the wrong machine for a job this is it! a 50 watt gavlo with an X Y table would have those done at a rate of about 40 seconds each, if that !! It looks like you need to slow the machine down , I would say 100mm/second ! This is where the slowness of the gantry style laser really makes it the wrong choice ! Be great if you where doing big plates with no time constraints
    Epilog Fusion M2 40 75W CO2 / 50W Fiber
    Epilog Legend 36EXT 75W CO2

  12. #12
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    That's why you need the x y table so you could mark a big batch ! My guess is epilog don't have one in the range ! The easiest way to get black is have the power set to 100% the frequency set to 50khz (on a 50 watt) and then adjust the speed down until you get desired results ! It should be possible, the laser part is capable, the problem is you might find when you get the speed to the desired black level the plates are taking to long! If this is the case their really is nothing you can do ! Those machines run at one speed so it will have to cover the whole marking area at what ever that speed is! Galvos waste no time in between, your covering maybe a 1m square area when the marking is maybe less than 5% of that ! Look for lots of sparks at focus

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bateson View Post
    $40,000 - lol boy are you in dream land. That might not even be half the price of this machine.


    As an owner of an M2 Dual... good luck with this too. I have spent 16 months trial & error to get a partial list of settings. Some materials will have multiple settings depending on the exact specification of the material. Stainless Steel for example, I have 3 settings. Unlike CO2, Fiber isn't a 1 setting fits all. Epilog tries, but the settings they offer are an extremely crude starting point.
    Tim, $40 k was starting point for the M2 as listed in the only spot I found on the web.....epilog doesn't post prices so I was yes guessing!
    But what I said is accurate, he has one item to engrave, if They could not be sure it would work, why buy it!
    Well, he has stated the reason now, ignorance on the guys in charge. Sounds like you guys have given him the best help. and I'm just taking up space. Good luck Tyler!
    Last edited by John Lifer; 11-06-2016 at 5:10 PM.
    Woodworking, Old Tools and Shooting
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by matthew knott View Post
    The easiest way to get black is have the power set to 100% the frequency set to 50khz (on a 50 watt) and then adjust the speed down until you get desired results
    ANY settings that work are absolutely dependent on the material you're using. The settings that may work great on some 1/8" thick SS will likely fail miserably on a Yeti...

    I did this ss tube (the top one, bottom is Cermarked) with my fiber at 200 speed, 100 power, one .01 hatch, 20khz, lens in focus--
    aside from the brown tint, it's hard to tell apart from the Cermarked one-
    DSC05467.jpg
    yet, I used the same exact settings on a 20 gauge 304 plate, and the engraving was a brown, charred mess and the plate warped and distorted badly--


    This is an SS bottle opener a customer brought (groomsman gifts)-
    I engraved these at 500 speed, 100 power, 200khz (not a typo), one .01 hatch, lens defocused quite a bit, like 2mm or so...
    These came out fantastic, I thought I'd found the magic settings!
    black1.jpgblack2.jpg
    --but alas, I've never got those settings to work on anything I've tried since...

    The common thread here: All my tests were done on stainless steel, but all the pieces were different in some way.
    I've found thickness itself to be a huge factor. No settings will work well for every job. BUT, when you stumble on some settings that work
    for a particular piece of material, SAVE those settings as they should (*should*) always work well for the same material.
    As soon as some other piece of stainless goes on the machine, it's roll-the-dice time!
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  15. #15
    Which Triumph fiber do you have Kev, the only one I see maxes out @100Khz.
    355 - 10400 : )

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