LED Disc Lights for Shop

[Mark Kuzee]

OK,
I got a little more insight from the lady at the lighting store.

She is recommending these:
http://www.progress.lightingnewyork....9-ac1-l10.html


I spoke in detail with her regarding this light and she did print out the spec sheet. She said " I will love them" We will be using these in the rest of the house.

She said I should get around 6 to 8 for my 375 sq ft shop. 1032 Lumens each. Lets see 1032 Lumens in a 375 sq foot shop. I cranked that into Jacks ( the light guy)s spreadsheet and I need around 55 fixtures for around 75-80 foot candles. Looks like I need to make a bigger shop (to hold all the fixtures).

What Am I missing? How would I need that many lights in this small space.

Thanks

[Alan Lightstone]

I used 12 4-bulb T-8 fixtures for my 700sq ft shop. So 48 bulbs in my shop.

The electrician thought I was looney, but was happy to install them all. Light seems just about right.

CRI, light output, and total lumens are the important information to learn about those LED fixtures you are interested in.

For my shop, I went with 4100K color temp. A number that I would hate for my home interior (I go nuts if lights aren't 2700K inside the house), but the cooler light looks better to me in the shop. You quoted 3000K bulbs, which will look warmer. You may like that look. You may not.

And clearly the higher the CRI the better, although in my experience the great majority of LED bulbs are still only about 82CRI these days (you can find some over 90, and those do visible look better).

And yes, you will need a veritable boatload of those fixtures to adequately light your shop.

[Jack Lindsey]

I don't think you are missing anything, Mark. That type of fixture is pretty inefficient for lighting a workshop. There are many better choices - strips if you have light colored ceilings, or industrials (strips fitted with a reflector) if the ceilings are dark. If you are going to be working full time in the shop LED's might be cost effective based on savings in energy costs offsetting the higher fixture cost for LED's. If it is a hobby type shop used mainly on weekends and some evenings fluorescent will probably be more cost effective.

[Mark Kuzee]

Jack,
Thanks for your response.

I am a hobbiest so this is not an area that I will occupy for long periods of time.

Are you suggesting fluorescents over LED's (tubes)? I live in Michigan and I have a heater so cold is something I need to deal with. I can live with slow startups on the fluorescents.
I like the idea of LED tubes but cost effectiveness is a concern as well. I think T8s would be a good fit.

I will have a drywalled ceiling that is painted white.

[Van Huskey]

Those fixtures won't be very cost effective nor have the type of coverage a "standard" 4' LED shop light will. If it were me I would have a row of 120v outlets (on either one or two switches) put into the ceiling then go to Sams/Costco/Amazon and buy the best reviewed cheap 4' LED shop lights at the time, you can get "roughly" 4000 lumen 4' strips for about $45 shipped from Amazon. You could put 6 up in a couple of hours and replace them easily yourself when need be. For working in the shop you don't want or need diffused light you just need lots of light. If you put enough of those can lights in the shop it will work it just isn't as cost effective as shop lights, but they do look more finished.

[Frank Pratt]

If you are not in the shop full time, then energy costs are not much of a concern. Fluorescent will still get you the biggest bang for the buck by far. And they will only use a little more energy than LED. To get high CRI (above 90) with LED is very expensive.

Don't get me wrong, I love LED & install tons of it. But for a home shop & where budget is a concern, fluorescent is still the champ.

Even if your only in your shop a few hours a week, you still want good lighting. Don't use that as rationale for going with a lower level of light.

[Alan Lightstone]

If you are not in the shop full time, then energy costs are not much of a concern. Fluorescent will still get you the biggest bang for the buck by far. And they will only use a little more energy than LED. To get high CRI (above 90) with LED is very expensive.

Don't get me wrong, I love LED & install tons of it. But for a home shop & where budget is a concern, fluorescent is still the champ.

Even if your only in your shop a few hours a week, you still want good lighting. Don't use that as rationale for going with a lower level of light.

+1

And high CRI bulbs are not just more expensive, they are hard to find.

I'm amazingly pro LEDs. But also being a hobbyist I went for fluorescents in the shop. And not a single one in the house.

[Mark Kuzee]

Thanks guys for helping me out here. I am definitely leaning towards the 4ft T8s. I think that at this point they provide the best value.

Another aspect is the cost of changing out the bulbs for another bulbs with better characteristics (Lumens/CRI). There are a ton of relatively inexpensive T8s out there with specs all over the place. I know you can buy LED ready fixtures (no ballasts) and plug the LEDs in. But they seem to be around 4 times( or more) the cost of a comparable T8.

Then there is the life expectancy of LEDS. I say this...the good thing about LEDS is they last forever. The bad thing is they last forever. What if a new technology shows up in a year that makes LEDS obsolete. I may be overthinking this all but I'm trying to keep an open mind.

Thanks Again!

[Frank Pratt]

Thanks guys for helping me out here. I am definitely leaning towards the 4ft T8s. I think that at this point they provide the best value.

Another aspect is the cost of changing out the bulbs for another bulbs with better characteristics (Lumens/CRI). There are a ton of relatively inexpensive T8s out there with specs all over the place. I know you can buy LED ready fixtures (no ballasts) and plug the LEDs in. But they seem to be around 4 times( or more) the cost of a comparable T8.

Then there is the life expectancy of LEDS. I say this...the good thing about LEDS is they last forever. The bad thing is they last forever. What if a new technology shows up in a year that makes LEDS obsolete. I may be overthinking this all but I'm trying to keep an open mind.

Thanks Again!

LEDs lasting forever is a bit of a myth. Quality LED fixtures can have a life of 100,000 - 200,000 hours, which is almost forever, but a lot of inexpensive LEDs have less than 30 - 50,000 hour life. And even those ratings are suspect. Most quality manufacturers call end of life when lumen depreciation reaches 70%. LEDs don't actually burn out (aside from random failures), they just get dimmer & dimmer. Some of those cheap LEDs may be at 50% or less when they reach their rated end of life. The LED market is like the wild, wild west. Buyer beware.

Good T8s are about 20,000, but that goes down with frequent switching. I've had Philips F32T3TL950 (5000K, 96 CRI) lamps in my shop for about 15 years & I haven't change one yet. It's about 23' x 25' & there are 32 lamps. Light levels are very good.

[Alan Lightstone]

I"m with Curt...most of the MR16 Halogens in our house have been replaced with LED and it's more light. Same with the PAR20 CFL --> R20 LED replacements in the master bath...instant on, brighter and better color temperature. The only place I had to "deal" was in the kitchen as the original MR16 halogen fixtures have transformers that just don't work with MR16 LED lamp replacements due to their age and design. There, I had to carefully "remove" the old "new work fixtures" and install new "old work fixtures" that could work with LED lamps. If the fixtures were not going bad, I would probably have stuck with the halogens for awhile, but I was getting increased failures and had to do something.

I missed this one, Jim.

How in the world did you get MR16 LED replacements that were more light? Our 50 watt MR16 bulbs are about 800 lumens. The replacements are usually 550 lumens. I've never found comparable brightness ones. I've thought of changing fixtures but it will cost a fortune.

[Jim Becker]

She is recommending these:
http://www.progress.lightingnewyork....9-ac1-l10.htmls

Those are mighty expensive...for that money, you can have "really nice" 4' LED "dual tube" emulation type lights that will provide a ton of light. Round units similar to that Progress Lighting offer sell for...~$24...at Home Depot.

I'll also mention that folks in "lighting stores" may understand residential lighting needs ok, but this is a completely different type of need...it's "industrial lighting", in effect.

[Jim Becker]

I missed this one, Jim.

How in the world did you get MR16 LED replacements that were more light? Our 50 watt MR16 bulbs are about 800 lumens. The replacements are usually 550 lumens. I've never found comparable brightness ones. I've thought of changing fixtures but it will cost a fortune.

50w MR16 Halogens do indeed put out some nice light...but they degrade significantly in my experience with them. I've never been happy with the halogens in that respect. The jury is still out about LED in this respect, but the "equivalent" LED lamps seem to perform well in the more modern MR16 fixtures throughout our addition. Or maybe it's just me...

[Mark Kuzee]

LEDs lasting forever is a bit of a myth. Quality LED fixtures can have a life of 100,000 - 200,000 hours, which is almost forever, but a lot of inexpensive LEDs have less than 30 - 50,000 hour life. And even those ratings are suspect. Most quality manufacturers call end of life when lumen depreciation reaches 70%. LEDs don't actually burn out (aside from random failures), they just get dimmer & dimmer. Some of those cheap LEDs may be at 50% or less when they reach their rated end of life. The LED market is like the wild, wild west. Buyer beware.

Good T8s are about 20,000, but that goes down with frequent switching. I've had Philips F32T3TL950 (5000K, 96 CRI) lamps in my shop for about 15 years & I haven't change one yet. It's about 23' x 25' & there are 32 lamps. Light levels are very good.

I think that "Forever" was a poor choice of words Frank and thanks for pointing that out. I'm getting to the point in life where I question the wisdom of buying green bananas. So 30k-50K hours is the same as forever in my case.

[Frank Pratt]

I think that "Forever" was a poor choice of words Frank and thanks for pointing that out. I'm getting to the point in life where I question the wisdom of buying green bananas. So 30k-50K hours is the same as forever in my case.

No, my point wasn't about your use of the word forever (notice I used it too), but that the life of many LEDs have a life of only 50% more than fluorescents. My fluorescents seem to be lasting almost for forever

[Ole Anderson]

My biggest issue with fluorescent is the buzz and failure of ballasts over time on other than top of the line (read:expensive) fixtures. Same with bulbs, to get a good CRI and long life, you need to pay top dollar for the bulbs, thereby negating some of the cost advantage of fluorescent. I have switched out all but one of my fluorescents with the HD 4' version of the LED shop light and love the light and quiet.